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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED STATION MINI

Brian, just because the bandwidth of Thunderbolt is vastly greater than the speed of a Redmag, doesn't mean it shouldn't be used or that Red shouldn't make a Redstation with Thunderbolt. You're forgetting that Thunderbolt is daisy-chain-able, whereas USB3 is not. The idea is that you'd have a few hard drives in that Thunderbolt chain and still transfer faster than FW or even USB3. Also, Macs do not have USB3 on them, so Mac users (and there's more DIT's using Macs than Windows) need Thunderbolt since it's faster than eSATA.

That Sonnet Thunderbolt ExpressCard adapter is not the best solution. You're still limited to the speed of the ExpressCard. You're also forced to have it at the end of the chain because it has only one Thunderbolt. That's the main issue with Thunderbolt devices right now. Most are single port only so you can't daisy-chain or use an external monitor (unless it's an Apple Thunderbolt display). The manufacturer's just don't get it.
 
Jarred Land said:
Thunderbolt we continue to look into.. but there are a few issues... like no Tower support for Mac's.
Click to expand...

I'm sure that will be coming in the Mac Pro update. And don't discount the fact that a lot of DIT's are actually using MacBook Pros with Thunderbolt on set. You'd sell A LOT of Thunderbolt Redstations. I'd probably buy 2 myself. Just make sure there's two ports so we can daisy-chain.
 
Mike Halper said:
Brian, just because the bandwidth of Thunderbolt is vastly greater than the speed of a Redmag, doesn't mean it shouldn't be used or that Red shouldn't make a Redstation with Thunderbolt.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you missed what I said in one of my previous posts, so I shall repeat myself:

I personally hope, just as everyone else does, that RED releases a Thunderbolt-equipped RED STATION. My point was that it will not increase transfer speeds like Paul suggested.

Mike Halper said:
You're forgetting that Thunderbolt is daisy-chain-able, whereas USB3 is not. The idea is that you'd have a few hard drives in that Thunderbolt chain and still transfer faster than FW or even USB3.
Click to expand...

I'm not forgetting anything. I understand that Thunderbolt is daisy-chainable. However, I don't think you understand how significant the speed reduction will be when you're simultaneously transferring data between multiple daisy-chained devices. I assure you, even with the bandwidth Thunderbolt can provide, it will be significant to a point where professionals will not want to daisy-chain high-bandwidth devices. Hard drives and SSD readers like the RED STATION would be classified as high-bandwidth devices.

Thunderbolt is not a magical single-port, fix-all interface. The deeper you get into the daisy-chain hierarchy, the more bandwidth you lose. Just as any with any other data transfer interface, multiple ports are going to have to be used; which is why the 27" iMac has two.
 
What a timing! Just cancelled Red Station 1.8" which hasn't been shipped yet and ordered Mini.
 
Brian Iannone said:
Perhaps you missed what I said in one of my previous posts, so I shall repeat myself:

I personally hope, just as everyone else does, that RED releases a Thunderbolt-equipped RED STATION. My point was that it will not increase transfer speeds like Paul suggested.
Click to expand...

Ok. Sorry for misunderstanding what you were saying.


Brian Iannone said:
I'm not forgetting anything. I understand that Thunderbolt is daisy-chainable. However, I don't think you understand how significant the speed reduction will be when you're simultaneously transferring data between multiple daisy-chained devices. I assure you, even with the bandwidth Thunderbolt can provide, it will be significant to a point where professionals will not want to daisy-chain high-bandwidth devices. Hard drives and SSD readers like the RED STATION would be classified as high-bandwidth devices.
Click to expand...

It's 20Gb/s, 10 in each direction. So you can copy from one or multiple devices at up to 10Gb/s to another device(s). That's plenty for copying from a couple Redstations to a few hard drives and not losing as much bandwidth as you're saying. Daisy-chaining TB devices would give better performance than having 3 USB3 devices on a USB3 bus, considering that computers generally have just one USB bus. You're also limited by the number of USB ports, which is less than the number of TB devices you can daisy-chain.
 
Mike Halper said:
Ok. Sorry for misunderstanding what you were saying.
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No worries. :)


Mike Halper said:
It's 20Gb/s, 10 in each direction. So you can copy from one or multiple devices at 10Gbs to another device(s). That's plenty for copying from a couple Redstations to a few hard drives and not losing as much bandwidth as you're saying. Daisy-chaining TB devices would give better performance than having 3 USB3 devices on a USB3 bus, considering that computers generally have just one USB bus. You're also limited by the number of USB ports, which is less than the number of TB devices you can daisy-chain.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you are thinking of a different amount of data that I'm thinking about... In my opinion, daisy-chaining high-bandwidth devices is not even an option. However, I suppose everyone has their own opinion about how long they're willing to wait to transfer a certain amount of data.

I prefer dedicated links for each device. If an anomaly were to appear, it would be simple to identify the issue. There are too many factors in a daisy-chain system when you're dealing with large amounts of data.

I am in no way stating that USB 3.0 is better than Thunderbolt. I much prefer Thunderbolt as a data transfer interface. USB 3.0 is built on a foundation initially created for transmitting mouse and keyboard commands to a computer. With the latest revision, it has become an option for transferring data and it's speed can now compete with true data transfer interfaces like eSATA. But again, I prefer eSATA now and Thunderbolt later.
 
Brian Iannone said:
I'm not forgetting anything. I understand that Thunderbolt is daisy-chainable. However, I don't think you understand how significant the speed reduction will be when you're simultaneously transferring data between multiple daisy-chained devices. I assure you, even with the bandwidth Thunderbolt can provide, it will be significant to a point where professionals will not want to daisy-chain high-bandwidth devices. Hard drives and SSD readers like the RED STATION would be classified as high-bandwidth devices.

Thunderbolt is not a magical single-port, fix-all interface. The deeper you get into the daisy-chain hierarchy, the more bandwidth you lose. Just as any with any other data transfer interface, multiple ports are going to have to be used; which is why the 27" iMac has two.
Click to expand...

Actually according to Lacie, if you daisy chain their drives you can get up to 800MB/sec
http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10549

but doesnt help much when your SSD cant keep up.
 
I'm sure we'll see a Thunderbolt one sooner or later. By this time next year, it will be hard to buy a new PC without Thunderbolt. ...Just sayin'
 
Brian Iannone said:
Perhaps you are thinking of a different amount of data that I'm thinking about... In my opinion, daisy-chaining high-bandwidth devices is not even an option. However, I suppose everyone has their own opinion about how long they're willing to wait to transfer a certain amount of data.

I prefer dedicated links for each device. If an anomaly were to appear, it would be simple to identify the issue. There are too many factors in a daisy-chain system when you're dealing with large amounts of data.
Click to expand...

The transfer speed doesn't decrease to nearly as low a level as you think it does when daisy-chaining. Yes, it would decrease, but there would still be well more than enough bandwidth to handle transfers from a Redmag or two, or even three or four. And having a dedicated bus for every single device is not always an option or possibility.
 
Mike Halper said:
The transfer speed doesn't decrease to nearly as low a level as you think it does when daisy-chaining. Yes, it would decrease, but there would still be well more than enough bandwidth to handle transfers from a Redmag or two, or even three or four. And having a dedicated bus for every single device is not always an option or possibility.
Click to expand...

Yep, you are correct.
 
Jarred Land said:
USB 3.0 is next ( End of this month )
Click to expand...


Now we're talking.
icon14.png
 
Nice one!

Jarred, do yo have a picture of the old one and the new one side by side?
 
ESATA 1.8" station has been a killer and totally pleasant workflow experience, but yea, since it's on topic I'd buy 2 or 3 Thunderbolt capable stations myself. It's crazy fast and has taken my workflow from simple Apple cinema monitor to a proper broadcast monitor via Promise Pegasus RAID/Ultrastudio 3D enabled editing station and I have never been happier with RED workflow and transfer/bandwidth speeds. Just got to get myself a Rocket and Sonnet PCI enclosure!
 
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