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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Scarlet vs BMC

DL Fitch said:
It's not that the camera doesn't matter, but the fact that BMC HAS ONLY BEEN RELEASED TO A SELECT FEW. The footage online is from people Blackmagic chose to make the look the camera look as good as possible - and it's being compared to Scarlet footage shot by users with a wide range of experience.
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EPIC was also released to selected few but the first footages that was put online looked very bad and got horrible feedback on vimeo and all other places (besides here).

BMC will take huge ammount of would have been Scarlet owners that is a fact. Next fall/winter Scarlet owners might get crippled Dragon update for 10k$, but who cares when the rumor is that BMC is coming with new 4K 120fps sensor next year (or was it early 2014?) and for the same price as the old model.
 
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And delivering in 2015 due to dust issues? ;-)
 
I live in the NOW!

v 4 software soon...a happy holiday for us ;)
 
Interesting thread. I actually had a BMCC on preorder, and waited, and waited, and then cancelled and ordered a Scarlet. Do i regret it, Absolutely NOT. Did i end up paying way more than i anticipated in the beginning, sure, but i factored it all in, and came to the conclusion that for "me" this was was the better choice, and at the end of the day thats what it comes down to, your individual choice.

Andrew.
 
Why is this an either/or decision at all. If you can afford it why not just get both cameras. If you cannot afford a SCARLET then there is no debate. But the overall price difference on a full shoot package here is 2K between the two cameras. Generally they share a lot between them.

1. Even if you get a SCARLET you are likely going to need to buy Resolve (or another high end package for Color Correction). So, if you plan that well; the effective additional cost of a BMCC would be 2K. Yes you could have a nice B-camera that shoots high rez footage in RAW for 2K. Because, if you are serious about 2K or better color corrected output then sort of high end color correction tool to get high grade output. Resolve is an excellent choice for that wether you are shooting with the BMCC or the RED.

2. With some thoughtful purchasing decisions you can share much gear between a BMCC and a SCARLET: lenses, support, matte box, filters, external video monitors; even power if you go with brick batteries. So, worst case you could build up a system and skills with a BMCC and drop in a Scarlet when you can afford it.

3. SSD prices are coming down. If you get them for the BMCC they could easily be re-used for field backups of your RED footage. They can be used in field recorders like the Atmos, etc. In short they are not a wasted investment for either camera.

4. These cameras both shoot RAW footage so the skills and workflow required to get good footage from both are very similar. Doing good pre-planning and designing of your look: check for both cameras. Exposing well for RAW footage: check for both cameras. Color correcting RAW footage with all the additional flexibility that RAW offers: check for both cameras.

5. Each cameras have complimentary strengths and weaknesses. The RED shoots 4K and is battle tested. The BMCC shoots Pro-Rez out of the box. The super sharpness of the RED image in some situations might be nice. The slightly softer look with different DOF qualities of the BMCC might be nice other times. Its not like both could not be used in the field together for different situations.

Effectively this discussion is arguing about cost differential on a full system that will cost between 6K (basic kitted out BMCC) vs 20K (basic kitted out SCARLET). Many of the expenses and skills are common between both cameras. If you have a need for the SCARLET and can afford it then you’re probably gonna get it. If you are budget limited or just prefer the BMCC the SCARLET is probably not up for consideration. But with basically a 2K cost difference on a substantial investment in money and time either way the worst case would be to start with a BMCC and build up to a SCARLET if that is where you want to head. So, is this really a VS. situation or more that one could be a growth path or option to the other?
 
IMO there's no reason to buy Scarlet anymore. These two cameras are so close to each other but the price difference is huge for working setup. Forget the Dragon update too. It will cost another 10k$ if it's even possible to update Scarlet and that Dragon will be crippled with different firmware compared to Dragon EPIC. From the RED crew comments you can sense that Scarlet is not going to have updated sensor. My guess is that they will drop the Scarlet price even more next year so it can compete with BMC better and old Scarlet owners can switch their cameras to Dragon EPIC's and get some kind of bonus discount, but that jump will cost big bucks something like 15k$ if the Dragon EPIC is 25k$.

So either get BMC or EPIC.
 
The thing is that in the UK there is quite a differential in price from Scarlet to Epic, one that i personally couldn't afford, but i don't think the Scarlet is redundant, far from it.
 
A lot of people say that the image coming out of the Scarlet is the same as the image out of the Epic or the Red One. I do not believe in this for a second. I have seen way too much Red Scarlet footage to agree on that. The image out of the Scarlet looks way more "videoish" than the image out of the Red One MX and the Epic. I don't care if it says on paper that it is the same. It is not. We have eyes.
 
Actually, when you look at competing products, Epic is the camera that's redundant and has the most competition. The F5/F55 and whatever Canon/Pana cook up next, will all be in the $20-30k range and be 4k+ raw with 14+ stops. Between the manufacturers, there's not much that really sets RED apart (there are little things, like free firmwares, REDcode, transparency with REDusers, but a lot of those things are overshadowed by the "constant beta" stigma and other image nuances [like highlight roll-off and lowlight capability] that other cameras handle very well directly out of the box.)

On the Scarlet-side, there is no other 4k raw S35 camera out there for ~$12k (shootable)... Although even that could change come April/NAB.

@Robert: Is that comparing R1 4.5k to Scarlet 4k? R1's 4k was 4096x2306 (or something) and its 4.5k was even higher... Maybe that's what makes the difference. The other thing is that a lot of Scarlet owners use their cameras for less-than-professional productions, whereas Epic and R1s are often used for more pro/budgeted gigs.
 
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Well my goal is to make beautiful frames with the Scarlet.
I will do my best to get to that level with what I have.
All this versus talk is tiring.
Mac vs PC
Max vs Maya
Coke vs Pepsi
Jose vs Patron...now we're talking ;)
 
Richard Goodwin said:
Why is this an either/or decision at all. If you can afford it why not just get both cameras. If you cannot afford a SCARLET then there is no debate.
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Agreed, they could compliment each other really well. For me there was very little debate. Although I've wanted a Red for many years now, I just couldn't afford to be an owner. I'm glad the BMCC is here to give me much of what I find desirable in a Red, but it doesn't mean the BMCC is in the same league. IMO Red cameras are and always have been an incredible value. Not only have they pushed the quality envelope, they've pushed the price one too. I don't expect that to change.

I really think they're just different cameras completely that have some overlap, but will mostly be used in different ways. I recently took a trip and having a stripped down BMCC with me was great! So much power in such a small and light package meant I could use a small hand held stabilizer and be extremely mobile. I think the Scarlet would push the weight limit of my stabilizer. This was crucial for this type of shooting, but wouldn't be a big deal at all for a larger production.
https://vimeo.com/55887965

I love the cutting edge, but overall it seems like we're entering a time when there are many great options that have reached a high level of quality all at different price points. Shoot with what you've got today and let tomorrow worry about itself. And if someday you end up shooting with a Red 645 or 617 consider yourself a very lucky person!
 
Robert Wauu said:
A lot of people say that the image coming out of the Scarlet is the same as the image out of the Epic or the Red One. I do not believe in this for a second. I have seen way too much Red Scarlet footage to agree on that. The image out of the Scarlet looks way more "videoish" than the image out of the Red One MX and the Epic. I don't care if it says on paper that it is the same. It is not. We have eyes.
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Have you ever thought about Scarlet being much less dollar could affect your perception?
I mean, a lot more people without a fat budget for lighting, lenses skill and talent had the money to buy a Scarlet, epic, not so many.
Yes, we all have eyes, sometimes what we dont have is a nice fat brain.
 
Robert Wauu said:
A lot of people say that the image coming out of the Scarlet is the same as the image out of the Epic or the Red One. I do not believe in this for a second. I have seen way too much Red Scarlet footage to agree on that. The image out of the Scarlet looks way more "videoish" than the image out of the Red One MX and the Epic. I don't care if it says on paper that it is the same. It is not. We have eyes.
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I've shot Epic/Scarlet side by side for a project at 4k 6:1 and neither the production or myself could see any difference. I agree that a lot of Scarlet footage is let down by the surrounding production and not necessarily the camera itself.
 
William Robinette said:
I've shot Epic/Scarlet side by side for a project at 4k 6:1 and neither the production or myself could see any difference. I agree that a lot of Scarlet footage is let down by the surrounding production and not necessarily the camera itself.
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Agreed. We did an interview with an Epic and Scarlet side by side, and they look indistinguishable. People are just looking for problems, and blaming the car for the driver's mistakes. Just cuz you have a 4K camera does NOT make you Formula 1 pilot.

One must earn one's stripes.
 
Josh Snyder said:
Dude, this looks freaking incredible. I can't believe that it only costs 3k$. Scarlet killer has arrived.
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Have fun with that small sensor. Considering that you can record uncompressed the complete "look around" FOV of the Epic on the Scarlet, I think the Scarlet's uncompressed 1.3 crop vs the 2.4 of the BMC is a huge fucking deal. And when you consider that the Scarlet is truly RAW and 4K, I'd hardly call the BMC a Scarlet "Killer" (but I'm happy your looking for a Scarlet killer, good to know your POV).

That said, the $3k price is hard to argue with. Just watch out for rolling shutter, apparently it has a lot of it. But no denying, cool camera.

But there is a REASON Philip Bloom is ambivalent about it, even though the images are great.
 
Nick Morrison said:
Have fun with that small sensor. Considering that you can record uncompressed the complete "look around" FOV of the Epic on the Scarlet, I think the Scarlet's uncompressed 1.3 crop vs the 2.4 of the BMC is a huge fucking deal. And when you consider that the Scarlet is truly RAW and 4K, I'd hardly call the BMC a Scarlet "Killer" (but I'm happy your looking for a Scarlet killer, good to know your POV).

That said, the $3k price is hard to argue with. Just watch out for rolling shutter, apparently it has a lot of it. But no denying, cool camera.

But there is a REASON Philip Bloom is ambivalent about it, even though the images are great.
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The sensor size is ok. Just use wider lens and you get same framing.

By Scarlet killer I meant a camera that will steal Scarlet customers. If Scarlet costed 3K$ including Side SSD and Canon AL Mount I would propably choose it over BMC.

I'm not planning to buy either of these cameras but when the price difference is so big I can't think that anybody would choose Scarlet over BMC. Bloom also didn't keep EPIC because of the issues it has with ISO etc, but is eagerly waiting the Dragon.

btw I would rather take 5K or even 4K native Dragon EPIC than 6K. I want to shoot full sensor and 6K gives just too much data. Not interested in Scarlet Dragon either (probably not even coming) since it will have same 6K sensor but lower frame rates. Fast frame rates are way more important than resolution beyond 4K for me.
 
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