RED S35 or Panasonic AF100

[Michael Olsen]

So... As much I would like to shoot RED, I think my budget will not allow that for the moment, and that's because among other things, I have a bunch of very fast Nikon primes and Zooms, and I think that will really make the AF100 easier on my pocket right now.

I don't know if it was mentioned explicitly here, but Nikon primes and zooms can both be used on the RED using an electronic mount, meaning you would retain control over Iris and (presumably) focus on newer electronic lenses.

There has been no mention of any such electronic Nikon mount for the AF-100, at least that I have heard of. Reading through other forums, this seems to be of some concern and continuing question. I suppose we'll find out for sure with time.

For now, however, if your Nikon lenses all have manual aperture rings, then it doesn't really matter. But if they are electronic there is a good possibility that they may not not be able to be used with reliable aperture control (or aperture control at all) on the AF-100.

 

[Eki Halkka]

The exception to this is perhaps Cineform. Transcoding a long GOP format to an intra frame format definitely helps with editing an FX layering.

There's no reason why it should, theoretically. It's still a recompression step, so by definition quality is lost compared to using the original files directly.

This said, i recall Cineform does pretty decent chroma interpolation, which may give an appearance of increased quality. The same thing can be done by filtering the original though, without recompression.

 

[Stuart English]

Transcoding

Transcoding

It's still a recompression step, so by definition quality is lost compared to using the original files directly.

Very true. There is no way to increase the quality of the original camera recording by transcoding it to another compression type.

Quality only ever trends down. Which is why if you are going to transcode you need the best possible image quality to start with.

Which implies recording at 12-bit / I-frame / RAW, and not at 8-bit / Long GOP / 4:2:0.


And from the above, the ideal is to have your NLE system work directly with the camera original files of course.

 

[Tom.Wong]

I agree, and I apologize for not revealing what kind of work I do when I first started this thread. I mostly do Documentaries but I intent to use the camera as A-Cam on a numerous fiction films.

I've been reading all the expert posts every day and I've learn a lot. Thanks. As many mates posted, I feel that the budget for the 2 cameras are somewhat apart. Something I didn't realize when I've made the original post. So... As much I would like to shoot RED, I think my budget will not allow that for the moment, and that's because among other things, I have a bunch of very fast Nikon primes and Zooms, and I think that will really make the AF100 easier on my pocket right now.

you might want to consider the fact that you can start with a 2/3 Scarlet get the things you need, kit up to 10kish, very workable, which would be what a af100 would cost if you got a nanoflash or ki pro with it, and than work, recoupe some money and buy the s35 brain. Remember the s35 brain is BEHIND the 2/3 project, you will see a 2/3 before you see the s35. Where RED truly wins here is that you can swap out brains as per project. 2/3 for your docu work, and another ENG sports type things, make money, have the camera and work and when the s35 comes out, swap the brains with the money you've recouped back. And when you have both you have the full flexibility of any shooting style.

 

[Robert Rogoz]

Transcoding to ProRes doesn't improve the quality of AVCHD - quite the opposite. Every time you transcode / recompress, you LOSE quality.

Of course you lose quality, I think you did not understand me clearly. First my point is that (at this moment at least) FCP or Avid can't handle AVCHD natively. My second point is that even if you use an NLE which can, AVCHD falls apart within a couple of generations of the process. ProRes takes the hit on initial transcode, then it is lose-less, but on a bigger project you run into cost issue of storage at 0.8GB/minute.
I think one of the best options soon will be Cinedeck with GH13. Of course it will require a lot of rigging, a lot of batteries, but Cinedeck as it stands now is the best piece of technology out there working at the moment.

 

[Aaron Newsome]

The GH13 can send a full HD signal output for recording?

 

[Eki Halkka]

Of course you lose quality, I think you did not understand me clearly. First my point is that (at this moment at least) FCP or Avid can't handle AVCHD natively.

That of course forces you to use an intermediate codec - but it's a limitation of these NLE's really.

My second point is that even if you use an NLE which can, AVCHD falls apart within a couple of generations of the process. ProRes takes the hit on initial transcode, then it is lose-less, but on a bigger project you run into cost issue of storage at 0.8GB/minute.

But that's the same regardless of the camera you use: if you need to use multiple generations, you will not use the shooting format for the intermediates (be it Red RAW, XDCAM EX, DVCPro HD or whatever).

 

[Eki Halkka]

Which implies recording at 12-bit / I-frame / RAW, and not at 8-bit / Long GOP / 4:2:0.

Yep - but guess what: i'd still be very happy if there was a HDV or XDCAM EX -compliant module for the new cameras.

Of course, for most projects, shooting raw and doing proper post is the best route, but there are many cases where that kind of lower quality suffices (i.e. quick turnaround standard def TV), and those formats have such a low computing overhead and space requirements that editing them on the road wouldn't be an issue. While i CAN edit r3d on my old laptop, it's not nearly as smooth as with lower quality formats, you know ;-)

 

[Robert Rogoz]

That of course forces you to use an intermediate codec - but it's a limitation of these NLE's really.
But that's the same regardless of the camera you use: if you need to use multiple generations, you will not use the shooting format for the intermediates (be it Red RAW, XDCAM EX, DVCPro HD or whatever).

Let me put it this way- video production is a process and the final product is going to be only as strong or good as the weakest link. I worked in the past with DVCPRO and now mostly with XDCAM EX and I can guarantee you that at the end of the day any DVCPRO or EX footage will look far better then any AVCHD after native edit.
My point was in regard to the new Panasonic, that after buying a lens, extra batteries and storage for a project, the total cost is going to be far more then Scarlet fixed and in the ballpark of the other RED, with much weaker codec at hand.

 

[David Rasberry]

Let me put it this way- video production is a process and the final product is going to be only as strong or good as the weakest link. I worked in the past with DVCPRO and now mostly with XDCAM EX and I can guarantee you that at the end of the day any DVCPRO or EX footage will look far better then any AVCHD after native edit.
My point was in regard to the new Panasonic, that after buying a lens, extra batteries and storage for a project, the total cost is going to be far more then Scarlet fixed and in the ballpark of the other RED, with much weaker codec at hand.

I would say Scarlet fixed will be in the same ballpark if you match the AF100's features, which means adding the EVF and at least the base the I/O module to the basic package. I also think Scarlet will be a much more flexible and capable all around camera with superior sensitivity, resolution, and dynamic range.

 

[Eki Halkka]

Let me put it this way- video production is a process and the final product is going to be only as strong or good as the weakest link. I worked in the past with DVCPRO and now mostly with XDCAM EX and I can guarantee you that at the end of the day any DVCPRO or EX footage will look far better then any AVCHD after native edit.

This is another issue altogether - we were talking about the need and/or benefits of an intermediate codec, not which codec is the best.

But let's look at what you say - it might be true, but i wouldn't be so sure. I'm not an AVCHD advocate, but i don't see it as that much worse as a codec really either, not counting the extra burden it puts on the post computing power requirements.

XDCAM EX is very close to HDV, both use long gop 4:2:0 8 bit Mpeg2, at roughly the same per-pixel compression rate (XDCAM EX has higher data rate, 35 mbit vs. 25 mbit, but also higher resolution 1920*1080 vs. 1440*1080). The fact that high Q EX uses VBR is a bonus though. The SP mode on EX is the exact same as HDV.

Now, AVCHD has roughly the same data rate as HDV, 24 mbit vs. 25 mbit, but higher resolution, 1920*1080, so it has lower per pixel data rate - but in the other hand, h.264 is supposed to be more efficient than mpeg2.

DVCPRo HD has the same or lower resolution as HDV, (1280x1080 for 1080/59.94i and 1440x1080 for 1080/50i), though with 4:2:2 color space, and much higher bit rate (100 mbit). But as an intraframe codec it's much less efficient than HDV, XDCAM EX or AVCHD, so that evens the playing ground a little. Also, many commonly used DVCPro HD cameras are barely able to produce 720p worth of resolution (HVX200, HPX500), so i wouldn't really say "it will always look better than AVCHD".

Listing formats, HDCam is also only 1440*1080, 3:1:1, at 144 mbits / s.

My point was in regard to the new Panasonic, that after buying a lens, extra batteries and storage for a project, the total cost is going to be far more then Scarlet fixed and in the ballpark of the other RED, with much weaker codec at hand.

Yep.

 

[Ken Chan]

Sony just unveiled an interchangeble lens APS-C sized camcorder using their new E-mount. Expected price is 2,000 Euros.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1007/10071401sonynexvg10e.asp

The Sony NEX-VG10.

 

[David Rasberry]

Cute camera.:001_tongue:

 

[Jim Retar]

That's pretty amazing.... $2000 for an s35, interchangeable camera, 18mm-200mm lens, decent audio. Look forward to seeing footage.

Edit - just read it does not have progressive mode or 24p... way to go Sony!

 

[Aaron Newsome]

I think we should keep this thread dedicated to comparing cameras that don't exist.

 

[Thomas Church]

Sony announced at this year's NAB that they are working on a 35 mm sensor camera that will be out before next year's NAB.

From the looks of it it'll be in the sub 10K range.

I think RED should be really worried; if this camera comes out before Scarlet 2/3 (and that's a real possibility, considering RED's history of delays) I think the 2/3 Scarlet will be in serious trouble.

RED should not overlook the demand for Scarlet S35... affordable 35 mm cameras from the competition are on the horizon.

 

[Michael Olsen]

I think RED should be really worried; if this camera comes out before Scarlet 2/3 (and that's a real possibility, considering RED's history of delays) I think the 2/3 Scarlet will be in serious trouble.

While it's virtually useless to speculate at this point, it is kind of fun.

Assuming the Sony has specs similar to other larger chipped cameras announced, and they are priced within the same league...

RED still has REDRAW or 1080p RGB, 24-120fps progressive, 3K for solid 2K delivery*, interchangeable lenses with mounts for PL, Canon, and Nikon, its own line of mini-primes, touch focus and monitoring capabilities, extremely modular power, storage, and I/O solutions, etc.

I'm sure there will be people who prefer a Sony "videocamera" form-factor.

I'm sure there will be people who want the extra 35mm DOF.

I'm sure there will be people who just don't want to use RED because its a RED.

But I also think there will be a lot of professionals at every level of quality and caliber who consider these 2/3" scarlets to be wunderkinds.

*I've been watching some YouTube videos shot on RED. Even on the internet, there is quite a difference to be seen between 2K/4K -> 1080p than 1080p acquisition.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

More on the forthcoming Sony:

• 14.2 effective megapixel ExmorTM APS HD CMOS sensor (19.5 times larger than conventional camcorder) for stunning HD movies with beautiful background defocus
• Accepts E-mount interchangeable lenses plus A-mount α DSLR lenses (via optional adaptor)
• High quality audio with Quad Capsule Spatial Array Stereo Microphone and external mic input
• 7.5cm (3 inch-type) Xtra Fine LCD and electronic viewfinder

Building on 25 years of continuous Handycam® innovation, Sony introduces the NEX-VG10E – the world’s first consumer HD camcorder with interchangeable lenses. It’s also the first Handycam® featuring an extra-large Exmor APS HD CMOS sensor that allows the creation of exquisitely cinematic background defocus effects.

Targeting video enthusiasts and photographers, the NEX-VG10E opens up unprecedented artistic possibilities not achievable with conventional consumer video cameras. Compatible with a choice of high quality E-mount lenses, it’s the first consumer camcorder that offers the same breadth of creative expression enjoyed by DSLR photographers. Alongside the three currently available E-mount lenses, users of the NEX-VG10E can experience a wide variety of A-mount DSLR optics by using the optional LA-EA1 mount adaptor. Picking from a choice of award-winning Sony G lenses, fixed-focal length Carl Zeiss portrait lenses and other models from macro to super-telephoto, videographers will have unprecedented freedom to explore an exciting world in movie creation.

At the heart of the NEX-VG10E is a 14.2 effective megapixel Exmor APS HD CMOS sensor that’s teamed with Sony’s powerful BIONZTM processor to capture very high resolution video and still images. Approximately 19.5 times bigger than the standard sensor found in other consumer camcorders, the APS-C sized imager also enables an extremely shallow depth of field. This allows videographers to achieve ‘cinematic’ results with beautiful background defocus (bokeh). In addition, the ability to capture DSLR-quality still images gives videographers extra shooting flexibility on assignment with less to carry.

Full HD 1920x1080 video images are captured in AVCHDTM format at up to the maximum 24 Mbps bit rate for superlative detail and clarity. Unlike many digital still cameras including DSLR that support HD video, there’s virtually no restriction on continuous shooting time. Just slip in your choice of either Memory Stick PRO DuoTM or SD media cards and capture Full HD video and JPEG still images for easy transfer into your existing PC storage and editing environment.

The NEX-VG10E comes supplied as standard with an image-stabilised E18-200mm F3.5-6.3 OSS lens that offers a powerful 11x optical zoom range. Because of its optimized design for video shooting, this high-quality E-mount lens offers smooth, ultra low noise autofocus and iris control. In-built Optical SteadyShot image stabilisation assures clearer video images when you’re shooting handheld. At wide angle settings, Active Mode enhances anti-shake performance even further, steadying jittery images even while walking. The lens also features a circular aperture for the creation of beautiful bokeh effects whether you’re shooting video or stills.

Reflecting the demands of serious videographers, sound quality matches the phenomenal imaging performance of the NEX-VG10E. The Quad Capsule Spatial Array Stereo Microphone uses advanced processing algorithms to combine signals from four separate omnidirectional microphone capsules. The result is exceptionally clear stereo audio with a highly directional response: this allows videographers to capture more sound from the subject they’re shooting, and less of distracting sounds around them. There’s also a jack for adding an optional external stereo mic, plus a headphone jack for audio monitoring.

With a photo-realistic 921k dot resolution, the 7.5cm/3 inch-type Xtra Fine LCD features TruBlackTM technology for an exceptionally detailed, high contrast view of images and menu settings. The LCD is supplemented by a high-resolution (1152k dot) electronic viewfinder that assists easy framing and monitoring. The viewfinder helps operator capture clear images in bright daylight and its angle can be easily adjusted for comfortable operation.

Despite its groundbreaking creative possibilities, the NEX-VG10E is compact, beautifully balanced and easy to handle, even for novice videographers. An intuitive jog dial and hotkeys make it easy to navigate camera menus and adjust shooting parameters. Videographers can also enjoy precise manual control over Iris, Shutter Speed, Gain and White Balance for professional results.

The Handycam® NEX-VG10E interchangeable lenses Full HD camcorder is available from October 2010.

 

[Thomas Church]

I agree with everything you said. If you gave me the option I'd go with RED any day.

But you can be sure Sony will have this camera out when they said they would. Panasonic has the AF-100 and rumors imply that they have something bigger than that as well.

What I really hope is that Scarlet S35 can come out fast because it's basically a stripped-down EPIC.

Q1 2011 would be perfect.

But what I realistically expect is mid-to-late 2011. That might be too late.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

More on the forthcoming Sony:

• 14.2 effective megapixel ExmorTM APS HD CMOS sensor (19.5 times larger than conventional camcorder) for stunning HD movies with beautiful background defocus
• Accepts E-mount interchangeable lenses plus A-mount α DSLR lenses (via optional adaptor)
• High quality audio with Quad Capsule Spatial Array Stereo Microphone and external mic input
• 7.5cm (3 inch-type) Xtra Fine LCD and electronic viewfinder

Building on 25 years of continuous Handycam® innovation, Sony introduces the NEX-VG10E – the world’s first consumer HD camcorder with interchangeable lenses. It’s also the first Handycam® featuring an extra-large Exmor APS HD CMOS sensor that allows the creation of exquisitely cinematic background defocus effects.

Targeting video enthusiasts and photographers, the NEX-VG10E opens up unprecedented artistic possibilities not achievable with conventional consumer video cameras. Compatible with a choice of high quality E-mount lenses, it’s the first consumer camcorder that offers the same breadth of creative expression enjoyed by DSLR photographers. Alongside the three currently available E-mount lenses, users of the NEX-VG10E can experience a wide variety of A-mount DSLR optics by using the optional LA-EA1 mount adaptor. Picking from a choice of award-winning Sony G lenses, fixed-focal length Carl Zeiss portrait lenses and other models from macro to super-telephoto, videographers will have unprecedented freedom to explore an exciting world in movie creation.

At the heart of the NEX-VG10E is a 14.2 effective megapixel Exmor APS HD CMOS sensor that’s teamed with Sony’s powerful BIONZTM processor to capture very high resolution video and still images. Approximately 19.5 times bigger than the standard sensor found in other consumer camcorders, the APS-C sized imager also enables an extremely shallow depth of field. This allows videographers to achieve ‘cinematic’ results with beautiful background defocus (bokeh). In addition, the ability to capture DSLR-quality still images gives videographers extra shooting flexibility on assignment with less to carry.

Full HD 1920x1080 video images are captured in AVCHD format at up to the maximum 24 Mbps bit rate for superlative detail and clarity. Unlike many digital still cameras including DSLR that support HD video, there’s virtually no restriction on continuous shooting time. Just slip in your choice of either Memory Stick PRO DuoTM or SD media cards and capture Full HD video and JPEG still images for easy transfer into your existing PC storage and editing environment.

The NEX-VG10E comes supplied as standard with an image-stabilised E18-200mm F3.5-6.3 OSS lens that offers a powerful 11x optical zoom range. Because of its optimized design for video shooting, this high-quality E-mount lens offers smooth, ultra low noise autofocus and iris control. In-built Optical SteadyShot image stabilisation assures clearer video images when you’re shooting handheld. At wide angle settings, Active Mode enhances anti-shake performance even further, steadying jittery images even while walking. The lens also features a circular aperture for the creation of beautiful bokeh effects whether you’re shooting video or stills.

Reflecting the demands of serious videographers, sound quality matches the phenomenal imaging performance of the NEX-VG10E. The Quad Capsule Spatial Array Stereo Microphone uses advanced processing algorithms to combine signals from four separate omnidirectional microphone capsules. The result is exceptionally clear stereo audio with a highly directional response: this allows videographers to capture more sound from the subject they’re shooting, and less of distracting sounds around them. There’s also a jack for adding an optional external stereo mic, plus a headphone jack for audio monitoring.

With a photo-realistic 921k dot resolution, the 7.5cm/3 inch-type Xtra Fine LCD features TruBlackTM technology for an exceptionally detailed, high contrast view of images and menu settings. The LCD is supplemented by a high-resolution (1152k dot) electronic viewfinder that assists easy framing and monitoring. The viewfinder helps operator capture clear images in bright daylight and its angle can be easily adjusted for comfortable operation.

Despite its groundbreaking creative possibilities, the NEX-VG10E is compact, beautifully balanced and easy to handle, even for novice videographers. An intuitive jog dial and hotkeys make it easy to navigate camera menus and adjust shooting parameters. Videographers can also enjoy precise manual control over Iris, Shutter Speed, Gain and White Balance for professional results.

The Handycam® NEX-VG10E interchangeable lenses Full HD camcorder is available from October 2010.