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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED S35 or Panasonic AF100

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[ Sorry if I'm late but I'd like to add my point (or just add a useless post, as you wish^^) ]

Sony announced at NAB2010 a pro handheld 35mm sensor camera... Without any other informations (execpt that it could be called Sony E35).
So... knowing how they like to put high pices on their cameras (the EX3 is announced at 9999 US$ on Sony's website) I see two options :
1 :
XDCAM HD 422 OR XDCAM EX codec, SxS cards, HD-SDI output for those who want to use a NanoFLASH recorder and have a better quality. Priced HIGH

2 :
NXCAM codec (so AVCHD, same as the Panasonic AF100 in some ways), SxS cards OR flash memory cards (SD Cards, CF, Memory Stick... Whatever), HD-SDI output for those who want to use a NanoFLASH recorder and have a better quality. Priced LOW

​
Option 2 would make it a direct competitor to Panasonic, but option 1 would make it a more efficient piece of video camera.
I don't know what lens mount they will put.

So, both the E35 and the AF100 can become serious challengers for the 2/3" Scarlet for people who can afford an external recorder like the NanoFLASH.
But I think the choice would be as follow :
Shallower depth of field and compressed video or less shallow depth of field and the whole benefits of RAW (and the 120fps !!!).
Plus, we don't know how the sensors will perform. We know that the AF100 will have the Lumix GH1 sensor optimised for video, but we don't know yet for the Sony (but I put a 1$ [I'm not rich !....lol] bet on the fact that it won't be anything near the F35's sensor). And I'm quite sure that the Scarlet's sensor will have a better resolution (but I suppose less sensibility... I said I suppose !!!).
For the form factor, I think any small Zacuto or official Red rig would make it as comfortable as any handheld camera or any full sized cam (like on the OOOOLD picture : http://vincentfollezou.com/video/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/red_epic_05-600x400.jpg )

AAAAAAND, we still don't know what is feature 21. Imagine it's a magic trick that make the depth of field as shallow as a 35mm... Errr... Ok, seems to be impossible and... not as great as the feature seems to be... I was just kiding.


 
The PAL NEX-VG10E is 25P off the sensor encoded into a 50i container. That's completely workable for indy film production. (The NTSC model is 30P encoded into a 60i container.) Add an E-mount to PL-mount adaptor and cinema glass and you've got a serious competitor to the HDSLRs.

Who would have thought we'd have a Super35mm sensor, interchangeable lens Handycam from Sony at under $2K, in 2010, capable of shooting footage for theatrical release?
 
If Sony had added 24 frames to this camera it would sell like hotcackes and would (for now) bury the SLRs for video production.

To me this camera is a bit of a Frankenstein.

Joe "Disney" doesn't need a big sensor and doesn't need interchangeable lenses.

Most people I know can barely turn off the flash of their point and shoot cameras.

On the other hand these are what every indie filmmaker wants, but the camera lacks recording at 24 frames.

I mean, WTF?
 
The dynamic range in the sample video doesn't look to be so good. Otherwise looks like a decent addition to the high end handycam market.
Can't really find a formal spec on it at Sony's website yet, so who knows whether it will have 24p or not?
 
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What?

What?

I just don't understand Panasonic and Sony
The upcoming GH2 will be able to do 1080 24p and 60p and the upcoming Sony NEX7 will do 1080 24p 60p and 720 120P

So they have the technology, why won't they put these specs into their video cameras instead of their hybrids!
 
Sony has CONSTANTLY not understood the interest in 24P... over and over again they release a new camera with that missing, only to have to add it to the next generation. It's almost like a blind spot with them. They just don't get it. I remember stories about how Lucas and a bunch of other people had to convince Sony to make the F900 24P HDCAM because Sony didn't see the reason for a 24P camera.

Maybe because Japan is so dominated by 1080/60i HDTV, and like the way 60i looks, they don't get the interest in 24P.

But it's the same with some other companies there -- remember the Olympus Quad-HD 4-CCD camera? The first generation was 30P and it took them years to add a 24P option.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Sony has CONSTANTLY not understood the interest in 24P... over and over again they release a new camera with that missing, only to have to add it to the next generation. It's almost like a blind spot with them. They just don't get it. I remember stories about how Lucas and a bunch of other people had to convince Sony to make the F900 24P HDCAM because Sony didn't see the reason for a 24P camera.

Maybe because Japan is so dominated by 1080/60i HDTV, and like the way 60i looks, they don't get the interest in 24P.

But it's the same with some other companies there -- remember the Olympus Quad-HD 4-CCD camera? The first generation was 30P and it took them years to add a 24P option.
Click to expand...

David (or anyone else)...

Do you know if there is a degree of technological ease afforded by the 30/60 rates that requires less processing in camera? Or, in this instance, do you think it is a product of "Joe Sixpack" being able to shoot a movie on vacation, come home, plug his camera into his 40" Vizio via HDMI, and immediately show his neighbors in a natively supported format?
 
Sony is a videocentric company. If one is shooting video for video presentation, 24p is not of much interest IMO. The greater sensitivity and DOF aesthetics of the large sensor are just as interesting at 30p as at 24p.
Personally I have always hated the 3:2 pull down cadence of 24fps material shown at 30p/60i TV rates. It bears little resemblance to the 24/48 cadence of projected film. I would much rather shoot video at 30fps large sensor or not.
 
Amusing then, that Sony make a big thing about 24p "True Cinema" video input capability (via HDMI) for their HD tv's. This is obviously for HD/Blue Ray movie support primarily.

It does seem though, that they don't perceive their camcorders as needing cinema style recording yet. So, focused on the consumer end of the market at the expense of more pro capabilities at the moment. Given that they've gone to the trouble of introducing an APS sensor and interchangeable lens mount, and considering where the competition seems to be heading, that does seem like a missed opportunity. Unless of course they have a higher spec NEX-V model waiting in the wings.......
 
GLap said:
Unless of course they have a higher spec NEX-V model waiting in the wings.......
Click to expand...

According to this guy, they do -- something more in the EX-1 class, with a sensor upgrade as well. I'd expect it to be the same sensor that's in the $19K PL mount camera they've promised to ship before NAB next year.

Another interesting note: the HDMI output on the NEX-VG10 is supposedly active during shooting and outputs the full, uncompressed signal before compression, so an AJA Ki Pro should work nicely.

No 24p sucks, but 25p-in-a-50i container works for me and certainly wouldn't hinder me from shooting a feature with it.

I'm still amazed we're bitching about a Super35mm Handycam with interchangeable lenses for under $2K because it only shoots 25p and not 24p. My how times have changed. :)
 
It's that '60/50i container' spec that will attract most of the flack of course, but yes, given what it is it seems a nice piece of kit at a very good price. Probably with more to come in the next iteration.

As for comparison with RED DSMC's though (accepting that neither they nor the Sony or Panasonic are available yet) I expect that will be a 'no contest', other than on price.
 
GLap said:
It's that '60/50i container' spec that will attract most of the flack of course, but yes, given what it is it seems a nice piece of kit at a very good price.
Click to expand...

It's 30/25PsF, so NLEs already know how to deal with it correctly as progressive footage. I think the main problem is that Sony didn't clearly label it as such, so people think it's actually interlaced footage, not progressive footage. Who knows why the marketing people do what they do?

AJA's Ki Pro can convert from PsF to P in hardware before doing the ProRes compression, so basically, for an additional $3600, you've got a Super35mm Handycam for $5600 that records to ProRes 422. That's $1000 less than I paid for my fixed-lens, 1/2" EX-1 two years ago that recorded to crappy MPEG-2. Sure, the EX-1 could shoot 24p, but 25p is perfectly workable and I'd trade a Super35mm sensor, interchangeable lenses and 25p for a 1/2", fixed-lens 24p camera any day of the week. I suspect I'm not alone.

Sony has just announced a "2K-for-$2K" Super35mm interchangeable-lens Handycam. That's huge. Even better, it'll be in our hands with all features enabled in 60 days, like clockwork. Sony may not give us everything we want (4K-for-$4K RAW), but they do give us on-time deliveries and spec's that don't change. I don't think we give them enough credit for that. ;-)
 
Erich Ocean said:
That's $1000 less than I paid for my fixed-lens, 1/2" EX-1 two years ago that recorded to crappy MPEG-2.
Click to expand...

The problem with this comparison is that the NEX is still a consumer camera, it would just be recording in a more professional codec. Unless I've missed something, there's still no exposure monitoring solution (zebras, etc), no focus assist, no audio inputs or controls worth discussing, and a high likelihood the camera will exhibit at least a little aliasing based on the 14.2MP sensor and the included "stills mode".

If Sony makes a professional version of this camera, then I feel it would be fair to compare old apples to new apples.
 
Michael Olsen said:
Do you know if there is a degree of technological ease afforded by the 30/60 rates that requires less processing in camera? Or, in this instance, do you think it is a product of "Joe Sixpack" being able to shoot a movie on vacation, come home, plug his camera into his 40" Vizio via HDMI, and immediately show his neighbors in a natively supported format?
Click to expand...

Well, yes. I think it's cost. Sony is doing PsF -- progressive frames piped through an interlaced infrastructure. Presumably for cost reasons, since they've got existing IP for handling that. It's clear they wanted to hit that "2K for $2K" price point. I suspect PsF and 30/25PsF was what it took to get there.

Another possible reason is that the Blu-ray spec doesn't support 30P, but it does support 30PsF (aka 60i), but I doubt they would cripple a Handycam for Blu-ray.

I think it's due to cost, and for that, I'm thankful: I don't want to pay more. Pipe the HDMI into an AJA Ki Pro and I'm in heaven. I can live with 25p. This thing is *way* more useful to me for filmmaking than the equivalent $$$ spent on an EX-1: interchangeable lenses, Super35mm sensor, even less weight! I love me some Red, but this is basically what I wanted out of Scarlet and it'll be here in 60 days. Count on it.
 
Michael Olsen said:
If Sony makes a professional version of this camera, then I feel it would be fair to compare old apples to new apples.
Click to expand...

Totally agree for ENG/EFP work, and partially agree for filmmaking if you've got the cash. I would at least want the 10-bit feed from HD-SDI piped into the Ki Pro.
 
Leo Sardello said:
Erich Ocean said:
Sony has just announced a "2K-for-$2K" Super35mm interchangeable-lens Handycam.
Click to expand...
No. Sony has just announced a 1080i Super 35mm interchangeable lens Handycam, for $2k.
Click to expand...

The difference between your statement and the one you were correcting is 0.1K and $1 respectively :)

Well, actually, you'll want to buy the Euro version since it's 1920x1080 25p (the fact that it "is within a 50i wrapper" makes very, very little difference)... which will presumably cost a little more...

let's say 1.9K 25p for $2.5K?

The only question is if it resolves well without aliasing or a lot of softness.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
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