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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED S35 or Panasonic AF100

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WILLIAM SPENCE said:
Heat and storage are both good arguements. But in that case, if 1080p is "good enough", then I would think that they could get by with a 4-5MP chip and offer better frame rates, or use fewer but larger pixels and get better DR, or simply make the camera less expensive. Either way, I still think 12MP is a bit of overkill if you are only going to offer 1080p.
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I think they wanted to use the same sensor from the gh 1 for marketing purposes and hype.. just a guess

but the af 100 was 100% reaction to the dslr market and they wanted to be first not best.


IMHO
 
Resolution

Resolution

Does anyone else find it strange that the AF100 supposedly has a 12MP sensor but will only offer 1080p?
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Not really. Do you know of any H.264 (AVCHD is a variant of that) chip sets that support greater than 1080p resolution?

Resolution independence is one of the key reasons that RED developed its own compression scheme.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Seems like, price-wise, the Panasonic would be competing with the fixed-lens 2/3" Scarlet, not an S35 Scarlet package which I assume would add up beyond the $10,000 mark easily.
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David, you must understand 2 things. First of all Panasonic will not offer any lens with this camera, so tag on another couple of grand to the bill. The other thing is a codec, simply AVCHD sucks imo. It might look OK at first, but if you go through any postproduction precess the quality simply doesn't hold up- hence you have to transcode it into something like ProRes, which makes you files HUGE! Now also in order to capture in some native 422 format you'll need to spend close to 3K on Nanoflash, so the price will be most likely above any RED.
 
I think people underestimate the cost of a practical Scarlet package to. Realistically S35 will be well over $10k.
I've seen my estimated budget for a 2/3" cinema, with used lenses and enough batteries and media for 6 hours of shooting time go higher than $10k.
 
Considering what we've seen and heard from the red guys so far, we'd be justified in asking how Scarlet's quality will be - fixed lens or otherwise - compared to the Alexa, let alone the AF100. ( :
 
I think the equations are pretty simple...

AF-100 - $6k without lens. Ready to shoot.
S35 - $15k without lens. Ready to shoot (inc EVF).

AF-100 Availabilty - Late 2010.
S35-100 Availabilty - Summer 2011 (informed guess).

AF-100 Features - 1080 24/25/30p, pretty good codec, 4/3" sensor, HD-SDI out, pro ins/outs, 6-7 stops DR.

S35 Features - 5k 1-60p, Raw, s35 sensor, HDR, pro ins/outs, 12-13.5 stops DR, several ground breaking features.

If time is on your side and you have roughly 3x the cost of the AF-100 ready.... then it is an absolute no brainer.... the S35 will destroy the AF100 in pretty much every way.

If you have a budget of around $6000 you have some thinking to do. Large sensor, good quality 1080p, EVF, HD-SDI etc... or small sensor, perfect 2k, 1-120p.

As I have said before....
$6000 = Compromises.
$15000 = Near perfection.
 
Robert Rogoz said:
It might look OK at first, but if you go through any postproduction precess the quality simply doesn't hold up- hence you have to transcode it into something like ProRes, which makes you files HUGE!
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Transcoding to ProRes doesn't improve the quality of AVCHD - quite the opposite. Every time you transcode / recompress, you LOSE quality.
 
Eki Halkka said:
Transcoding to ProRes doesn't improve the quality of AVCHD - quite the opposite. Every time you transcode / recompress, you LOSE quality.
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The exception to this is perhaps Cineform. Transcoding a long GOP format to an intra frame format definitely helps with editing an FX layering.
 
I didn't read every post in this thread but it seems like there is an oversight on the post side of this "pretend" apples to oranges comparison. Both AVCHD and RedCode require rendering into something else to edit smoothly (and one could add a conform step to the Scarlet workflow since that's one of the great things about shooting Raw). I don't think (IMHO) people shopping for cams in this price range generally have clients with budgets that can swing a conform, or even understand what it is. Furthermore, they won't know what RAW means or why they will have to wait for their footage to be "transcoded" in order to be useable (I know, I know... proxie workflow but sorry it's not a viable solution to me). So every estimate in this fun "guessing game" should include the $5k Red Rocket in Reds bid, unless you all have extremely loose deadlines and especially if you are adding a nanoflash to the AF100 side which delivers I-frame files up to 280Mbps in QT or MXF files which drag, drop, and play nice with any NLE, not to mention it's just one set of files to keep. Also remember to add in the mac pro and a massive raid to keep your Raw files and your transcoded editorial/possible finish files from Scarlet. I can't say what will happen with the Scarlet but I can see fairly clearly at this point what the AF100 will cost with a nanoflash and a set of Zeiss/F mount primes, rod support and a follow focus... which will be the prosumer "must have kit" come december and I'm willing to bet on that. I sold my EX3 as soon as I saw the AF100 announcement, and it would'nt surprise me to see the scarlet 2/3 dissapear due to the DOF frenzy the 5D started and the AF100 offering becoming a reality this year.
 
KevinStanley said:
I didn't read every post in this thread but it seems like there is an oversight on the post side of this "pretend" apples to oranges comparison. Both AVCHD and RedCode require rendering into something else to edit smoothly (and one could add a conform step to the Scarlet workflow since that's one of the great things about shooting Raw). I don't think (IMHO) people shopping for cams in this price range generally have clients with budgets that can swing a conform, or even understand what it is. Furthermore, they won't know what RAW means or why they will have to wait for their footage to be "transcoded" in order to be useable (I know, I know... proxie workflow but sorry it's not a viable solution to me). So every estimate in this fun "guessing game" should include the $5k Red Rocket in Reds bid, unless you all have extremely loose deadlines and especially if you are adding a nanoflash to the AF100 side which delivers I-frame files up to 280Mbps in QT or MXF files which drag, drop, and play nice with any NLE, not to mention it's just one set of files to keep. Also remember to add in the mac pro and a massive raid to keep your Raw files and your transcoded editorial/possible finish files from Scarlet. I can't say what will happen with the Scarlet but I can see fairly clearly at this point what the AF100 will cost with a nanoflash and a set of Zeiss/F mount primes, rod support and a follow focus... which will be the prosumer "must have kit" come december and I'm willing to bet on that. I sold my EX3 as soon as I saw the AF100 announcement, and it would'nt surprise me to see the scarlet 2/3 dissapear due to the DOF frenzy the 5D started and the AF100 offering becoming a reality this year.
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i think the size of the files will depend on what redcode you decide to use

redcode 21 or redcode 250 will be a factor on file size .. correct me if im wrong
 
Scarlet

Scarlet

As has been discussed, the 2/3" sensor market is very diverse. Video production does not just revolve around ultra shallow DOF.

As for editing; Avid, Sony (Vegas) and Adobe have already announced or demonstrated .R3D RAW file compatibility up to 4K resolution.
 
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Stuart English said:
As has been mentioned several times, the 2/3" (and smaller) sensor market is very diverse.

The production world does not just revolve around shallow DOF.

As for editing;
we have already seen announcements or demonstrations of .R3D RAW file compatibility on Avid, Sony (Vegas) and Adobe up to 4K resolution.
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scarlet 2/3 will be a great extreme sports camera .. i am absolutely positive we will see some amazing surf videos/motocross/skate..etc.. from this lil bad boy

not so much from af 100
 
Yes that is correct, however, if the red one can record somewhere around 16 minutes of 3K 16x9 RC28 23.98 to a 16 gig card currently I'd say your scarlet is going to have file sizes similar to the current Red One, which requires lots of TB to keep projects locally, not to mention backups. Remember, RAW isn't good for online currently unless you have a PC with CS5 and lots of horsepower. Maybe it will be native and fast in FCP and Avid by the time the camera is actually shipping.
 
I agree that the world does not revolve around shallow DOF, but it is the hot ticket right now and I wouldn't be jumping into the 2/3rd market without having jobs lined up that can pay for it. Some of the best action sports footage I have seen was shot on a 300 dollar gopro camera, but the prettiest action footage I've ever seen was shot with 35mm DOF.
 
Storage

Storage

I'd say your scarlet is going to have file sizes similar to the current Red One, which requires lots of TB to keep projects locally, not to mention backups.
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No apologies there, capturing 12-bit RAW image quality and uncompressed audio does cost bits.

However as a 7200RPM 2TB hard drive only costs about $100 at Fry's ... the trend in storage costs is clearly down.
 
None needed, There are clear advantages to shooting red and I use bare HD as archive all day long. I've also been able to build a 32TB raid into my DIT cart which was completely out of reach a very short time ago. My statements are aimed at people comparing these two products head to head, it's not a fair comparison to either product as non of them are directly comparable. At the end of the day, cameras are just tools, the jobs you do most commonly should really dictate which tool will work best for you and from there your budget will pretty much dictate the rest.
 
KevinStanley said:
...the jobs you do most commonly should really dictate which tool will work best for you and from there your budget will pretty much dictate the rest.
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I agree, and I apologize for not revealing what kind of work I do when I first started this thread. I mostly do Documentaries but I intent to use the camera as A-Cam on a numerous fiction films.

I've been reading all the expert posts every day and I've learn a lot. Thanks. As many mates posted, I feel that the budget for the 2 cameras are somewhat apart. Something I didn't realize when I've made the original post. So... As much I would like to shoot RED, I think my budget will not allow that for the moment, and that's because among other things, I have a bunch of very fast Nikon primes and Zooms, and I think that will really make the AF100 easier on my pocket right now.
 
Most of the major NLE's now support both Redcode RAW and AVCHD native on the timeline. It is not necessary any longer to transcode to edit. You don't need to encode it until you render to whatever your release format and resolution will be.
Since Redcode raw is a much higher resolution image file it requires beefier computers and a lot more storage space to edit effectively. But the benefits of raw for those most interested in the very best final image quality and flexibility in the post process far outweigh any disadvantages.
I will take 2/3" Redcode raw at more than twice 1080p resolution over encoded HD video in any format any day. 2/3" is a robust and popular format that stands on its own merits. Cinematography Oscars for the last two years went to films that were shot to a great extent on 2/3" digital cameras. This format is not going to disappear anymore than 16mm film has disappeared in the last 100 years. For many types of production it is a preferable choice.
 
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