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Red Restrictions #5

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Mark B.

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Did anyone else pay attention to the Terms and Conditions document of the Epic Dragon upgrade? What are your thoughts on item #5 (page 2) in the document? It has me questioning whether I'll be buying the dragon upgrade. Material possessions come and go but freedom once lost is hard to regain.

#5: RESTRICTIONS ON USE - Buyer will not cause or permit the modification or reverse engineering of file
formats, tools, or image processing of RED products without express written consent from RED. Buyer will
not develop tools from RED products or use non-RED approved tools, products, or software with RED
products without express written consent from RED. Buyer will not cause or permit any reverse
engineering of RED products. Buyer will not provide repair services for RED products without the express
written consent from RED. Buyer will not use RED's trademarks, including as part of a domain or company
name or in keywords or online search optimizations, without the express written consent from RED.

Here's one possible interpretation...
1) According to the restrictions you are not allowed to make "tools" with Red equipment. Documentaries and video tutorials are classified as learning "tools", and therefore according to the restrictions you would not be allowed to make documentaries or tutorial videos using your Red camera.
2) It restricts software developers from producing open source software that might edit R3D footage.
3) If you wanted to host a website for a movie you made called "www.LoveInTheRedRiverValley.com", you would have to come up with a different name because you are not allowed to use the word "Red". It's not just restricted as a standalone word either, if you have a movie called "Scarred For Life", you would be in breach of the agreement because the letters "red" occur within that title inside the word "Scarred".
4) It restricts your ability to use search engines. When typing keywords into search engines, you can no longer use the letters "red". If you search for "Red Herring", you've just breached the agreement. Similarly, if your company sells Red Herring among other types of fish, you must tell search engines not to index that page so that the general population will not stumble upon the words when they're using the search engine.
5) You can no longer name your business anything that has the letters "red" in it. If you live in Redding CA, or Redmond WA, etc., you are no longer allowed to name your business "Redding Hotel", or "Redmond Heating and Air". If you want to name your business "XXX Credit Union", you are out of luck because "red" is contained within "Credit".
6) You can't use any 3rd party tools without first getting permission from Red. If you have a tripod, you have to write to Red and ask if it's okay to put your camera on it. If you have a home-made mic mount, you have to write to Red and ask permission to use it (ask about the microphone cable and microphone while you're at it). If you set your camera on a park bench, you would have to write to Red and ask them if it is an approved stabilizer for the camera. If Red wants to, they could deny any 3rd party gear except their own Red products, no exceptions. Red could take legal action if you use anything other than their accessories.
 
The way I read it is that RED has an enormous investment in their company, their name, their logo, their products and specifically in their technology and their Sensors, if any one would be openly allowed to do with RED products as they wish, then it could get messy fast.

There are several third party companies that do make tools to work with RED product, and those are all okay with RED those that are not and do not comply get SUED.

I would not want anyone one go Chinese on me and Reverse engineer in days what took me years to create.

As far as using the cameras to make documentaries you can do that al day long people have already been doing, nothing to do with that, you need to read thru the significancy of the writing ion any legal paper, can't take literal any exposition of such regards.

Ultimately Software is what the RAW R3D data files need in order to get worked on and delivered, but this too, is part of an important key factor of how ultimately the images will look, and if I was RED I too would not want any one creating anything at all as far as been able to play with my RAW files unless they had specific knowledge of how to do it, and show that they can do it well, as to not wrongly compress or develop the R3D files causing in turn to deliver bad imagery, and in turn hurting the company's product.
 
So you're happy to give up your freedoms as long as a privately held company gets to benefit? People just confuse me, it's like nobody cares about freedom anymore.
 
Weird Mark. You've been a board member since 2006 and this has been Red's mindset for a while. In my opinion you are reading a bit hard into it.

Most of the limitations regarding the name are there to protect the trademark and differentiate companies, business, projects, etc....

For instance I've seen folks use Red camera and sensor names in their business name, which is moderately misleading as that entity likely has no affiliation with Red. This can actually potentially damage Red's image if that entity falsely represents themselves.

Red is mostly protecting themselves and their brand. They are a good company and won't chase you if your motion picture title is "Red Rum Rumble" if there's a purpose. In a world where "Epic Movie" and "Red 2" exist it should be a given that RED's intent with that wording isn't malicious.

In terms of protecting the technology, I mean, that's a given.

If there's interest in creation applications or software however to work with say .R3Ds there's a simple approval process to go through. It's actually similar to other companies really. Don't know what the gruff is about really.

If you think Red's going to come after you for using a anybody's tripod and considering how good the company's reputation is, I'd say that's just a bit paranoid. That's not with this is about. Protecting brand and technology however is what it's about.
 
sorry but your interpretation is not really a possible one....
i won't go into why you and anyone else is still allowed to use the word red since it is not trademarked....
as far as tools go....i am sure RED would allow you to attach a handle to your dragon and use it as a hammer....

the legal interpretation is simply a protection of registered RED trademarks....RED does not want you to reverse engineer their products or provide repair service (without written consent)...
most of this can probably be found in any electronics manual...
i don't see anything in there to why you can't open up your dragon, tweak things, fry an egg on the sensor....or just use it as a hammer....just don't expect warranty repair after....

i think in todays world freedom and citizen's rights are definitely in danger but this should be the least of our problems...
 
There are lots of tutorials on the net about Red, Red workflows, and how to use the system. Ain't nobody is getting a cease and desist. Thousands of us help each other on this forum with tech issues, both directly related to the camera and not. So I wouldn't worry about that part. Just basically don't use their logo, brand, or reverse engineer software and hardware and you will be fine. I am fairly sure most companies don't want those things done with their expensive R&D, this really isn't a big deal...

I mean the NSA is watching us right now, and your worried about a TOS agreement? C'mon man its already 1984 anyway lol!
 
My family is telling me to stop being a paranoid computer programmer type person. Apparently there are times when I read too much into things. But here's a real-life concern I have - I own a site called "RedMaid.com", which is going to host a movie I plan on eventually making, which will be of the same title. And to cover pseudonymous confusion I also own "RedMade.com", which would forward people to RedMaid. Though, in the future maybe RedMade would act as a categorical list of movies made on the Red camera. Is Red going to get in a huff over these site names? Claiming breach of rule #5?
 
You could directly talk to them about it if it might be an issue, just to clear things up. I mean if it has nothing to do with them specifically, as in its not referring to the camera but rather something else I wouldn't worry since why would they care. Its not like you called it r3dmade ya know? But if your using it referring to their camera system I have seen them ask people not to.
 
if you have owned the urls before red started making cameras, you should be fine....if you got these as a business endeavor connected in any way to cameras/movie/film business, you should have a good reason for the use of "red" in the name....
silly examples: if i was the descendent to a scottish pirate dynasty working in LA with flaming red hair, i would have a good reason to call myself the redDP and there might not be much RED could do about that...
gwyneth's daughter apple can use the name apple more freely then most other people when it comes to marketing but of course there are limitations....not sure she could open an apple store....

either way, i think red is small enough and tied to the community in such a way that you could always approach them directly (hey, even through this forum...they seem to read it!) and i am sure things can be figured out...
 
While most people are bashing Mark on this one, I too would like further clarification on what this means for people that are trying to make inventions for the RED market? The way that contract reads, it sounds pretty devastating for inventors related to the RED market
 
I think you are reading too far into it. Coming from a branding side where people are always trying to protect their investment, it makes sense.

As long as you don't start a line of products called "REDcessories" or "EPIC Mounts" I think you will be ok..

Same goes for "www.buyREDcamera.com" "www.bestREDtutorials" or anything like that.

DC
 
Mark B. said:
My family is telling me to stop being a paranoid computer programmer type person. Apparently there are times when I read too much into things. But here's a real-life concern I have - I own a site called "RedMaid.com", which is going to host a movie I plan on eventually making, which will be of the same title. And to cover pseudonymous confusion I also own "RedMade.com", which would forward people to RedMaid. Though, in the future maybe RedMade would act as a categorical list of movies made on the Red camera. Is Red going to get in a huff over these site names? Claiming breach of rule #5?
Click to expand...


The paragraf is just something that RED can use when things get ugly. Then still, as a user of the camera there is not much to worry about. If you try to profit a bit closer to what actually is the red brand and business well then you should worry. Just as if you got to close to any other trademark or product. That paragraf is actually not really needed, RED automatically got those rights in and around their trademark anyway and would win in court if regardless if it was there or not.

If www.RedMade.com would list films shot on red or such I think that could be a problem, even though as stated here, if you ask them and tell them your intentions then possibly they let you run with it. It's actually not so strange, if somebody made a www.markbmade.com page and listed the films you have done and tried to profit from it... then I think you would call your agent and ask if they actually where aloud to do so, or no?
 
I think that's pretty standard fare EULA-type legalese. Check out anything from Sony, ARRI or similar and I'm sure it will read the same.
 
"Historically, Oakley vigorously litigated any unauthorized distribution of its products as well as patent infringements. This helped keep competitors out of such a lucrative business. One attorney told Forbes that Oakley "uses litigation as a marketing tool." He estimated he had spent 2,000 hours helping ten sunglass makers fight Oakley in court in the early 1990s."

"Oakley had some 320 patents issued or pending worldwide, plus 249 registered trademarks, as of 1995. Jannard's chief legal advisor, boyhood friend Gregory Weeks, spent much of his career enforcing Oakley's patents and trademarks, starting with Jannard's first motorcycle handlebar grip. Oakley exhibited zero tolerance for counterfeiters and used its sales force, concerned consumers, and private investigators to seek out counterfeiters and sue them."

I wouldn't test Jannard, he and his legal team are animals...
 
Björn Benckert said:
If www.RedMade.com would list films shot on red or such I think that could be a problem, even though as stated here, if you ask them and tell them your intentions then possibly they let you run with it. It's actually not so strange, if somebody made a www.markbmade.com page and listed the films you have done and tried to profit from it... then I think you would call your agent and ask if they actually where aloud to do so, or no?
Click to expand...

If somebody made a site and listed the films I'd made, I'd be like... SWEEEEET!!!! The site would look empty though.
 
The solution is easy. Buy a Dragon and ignore the over-zealous lawyer talk. If RED tries to enforce it happily go to court for 10 minutes while the judge throws out the case. You can't sign away your rights.

We did a job where we had to affirm that none of the artists were on a TSA no-fly list. Lawyers get bored and come up with absurd contracts.
 
KETCH ROSSi said:
I would not want anyone one go Chinese on me and Reverse engineer in days what took me years to create.
Click to expand...

Yo KETCH, next time be more specific and use the word "China" instead of Chinese. I know it's confusing cause Chinese is a nationality and a race.
Chill!
:smilewinkgrin:
 
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