RED refunds and fine print....

[Greg M]

Jim and others would never call me a faboy. That said, I can attest that everything I have seen or heard about reds customer service is that it is by far the best in the industry bar none.

Although there are some things I have concern of for the camera, service and commitment to customers by red is definately not one of them.

I can confirm this, my experiences with Red customer service have been exceptional. I personally have never experienced better customer service from any company in the past 26 years of business.

 

[Steve Phillipps]

Not sure I agree that Arri and Sony are "NOT in the same reliability club". Arri obviously has a legendary reputation for reliability, but I can think of very few problems with Sonys (or Panasonics) that I've had or heard from other people. The Varicam was trawled around some of the most demanding habitats in the world for Planet Earth and performed pretty much flawlessly. What puts them in a different reliability to the RED at present (if some posts here are to be believed) is that there very rarely seems to be a situation where the camera simply fails to power up (save humidity problems), or there is interference in the picture or bits breaking or poorly fitting - with Sony/Panna you're getting something you know will work and will give you the images that you've grown to expect - although when the RED's flying of course the images you get seem to make it all worthwhile!
Steve

 

[Greg M]

Not sure I agree that Arri and Sony are "NOT in the same reliability club". Arri obviously has a legendary reputation for reliability, but I can think of very few problems with Sonys (or Panasonics) that I've had or heard from other people. The Varicam was trawled around some of the most demanding habitats in the world for Planet Earth and performed pretty much flawlessly. What puts them in a different reliability to the RED at present (if some posts here are to be believed) is that there very rarely seems to be a situation where the camera simply fails to power up (save humidity problems), or there is interference in the picture or bits breaking or poorly fitting - with Sony/Panna you're getting something you know will work and will give you the images that you've grown to expect - although when the RED's flying of course the images you get seem to make it all worthwhile!
Steve

I have owned/own all of the above and I stand by my statement regarding customer service. I will agree though that all of my Sony and Arri gear have been relatively trouble free.

 

[Greg M]

"10. INDEMNIFICATION – Buyer shall indemnify, defend, and hold Red and Red’s officers, agents and other representatives harmless from all demands, claims, actions, causes of actions, proceedings, suits, assessments, losses, damages, liabilities, settlements, judgments, fines, penalties, interest, costs and expenses incurred (including fees and disbursements of legal counsel) of every kind (i) based upon personal injury or death or injury to property to the extent any of the foregoing is proximately caused by defective product..."

Mike this is standard language in pretty much any recent contract. I even have a similar clause in several of my contracts. Unfortunately the U.S. is a very litigious country and clauses like this have become necessary. The truth is they serve very little purpose if the company is actually found liable, in other words general laws prevail...so dont be afraid of this.

 

[Steve Phillipps]

I'm sure you're right about the customer service, this is obviously a very special company, and a refreshing change. It's not just the service, I think the whole thing with pricing and compatability with 3rd party and consumer parts is a real winner too. Unlike Sony et al who just seem to make everything is incompatible as possible so you have to bin you're current equipment and buy more of their stuff, RED using things like V-lock batteries (which I have already on other cams) and CF cards which are chep and freely available, plus PL, Nikon etc. lens mounts means that folks can use existing kit to further keep down the already low price of the camera system. It's also nice when looking on RED Store to come across items where you look at the price and think "oh that's quite reasonable" as opposed to many times when I've seen prices on Sony/Panna bits and pieces and thought "WHAT' you must be joking!"
Steve

 

[Michael Brennan]

It is heartening to hear stories of excellent service as it is obvious where RED is comming from and where it wants to go with customer satisfaction.
That has been pretty well articulated by Jim.

However, it is R&D and engineeering issues that is in question. The people are top notch.

Maybe customer care will extend to a RED buyer with genuine experiences of pain due to bugs in the system?

My aphrehension is based on the unknown % chance of numerous others also being unhappy and wanting returns.

Permission for a poll on the subject list mum?



Mike Brennan

 

[Greg M]

As I see it and please correct me if I'm wrong, with no gaurantee that the camera will deliver any particular specification where does this leave the buyer in the legal sense if their is a differenc of opinion between what is and isnt industry standard or whatever other method of establishing is the camera is "fit for purpose"?

Mike,
If the current feature set isnt enough to satisfy you that you received more value than you paid for, then seriously nothing will make you happy. This is a $17,500. camera, with a PL mount and a 4k sensor...you cant even buy a Pro35 adapter for your Sony for this kind of money. This forum is full of reviews and hands on experiences from owners. What exactly are your intentions here?

My suggestion, since you seem to be in such turmoil over little details of the contract is that you spend $500 and find a rental company near you and put the camera thru its paces at your own leisure. This way you will know exactly what you are getting into.

If you want an owners personal opinion, then mine is that for $17,500 you cant go wrong. The camera is worth much more. Yes, there have been small issues with the camera. These are to be expected when you consider that a few years ago the owner of the company was making sunglasses. But these small problems have never stopped me from finishing a production. If you want a perfect camera dont buy the Red One. If you are willing to accept that this is a brand new camera company making a revolutionary product and accept a few speed bumps along the way, you will be overjoyed at what you get in return.

I have a second camera coming this summer (as do a number of early owners), if I was really dissatisfied do you think I would still take delivery of a second camera? As a point of reference I have owned/own several dozens of professional cameras throughout my career including eight Betacams, Digital Betacams, Iki's, JVC, Phillips, BTS, several Arri, Canon, Panasonic, Mitchell, the list goes on...hell I even have a few Edison Kinetoscopes (Im not really that old).

Try out a rental, I think you will be hooked too.

Goodluck on your decision.

 

[Michael Brennan]

Digital FX ,

it is more than a $17k camera if you have to equip with good lenses and have a second unit.

I don't trade value for money for reliability in my buiness plan UNLESS the client is totally on board with the new technology.

The mantra here is that if it is cheap then accept problems.

Please dont assume what I know and dont know about the camera.

My intentions are pretty obvious arent they, to establish a path for users who are unhappy with the kit to return it.
No hidden agendas here!

Why should I wait for a year just because I fear I wont get my money back if the camera is unreliable? If the camera is for sale then consumer rights apply.

I am heartened that pros are taking risks but I dont see why we cant agree on a more solid refund plan....


Mike Brennan

 

[jaadgy akanni]

Sarcastic me:

Sarcastic me:

Refunds would be great. That way I could spend 6 months with the camera, shoot my project, decide I don't like the camera, and spend my refund money on other stuff.

 

[Michael Brennan]

Refunds would be great. That way I could spend 6 months with the camera, shoot my project, decide I don't like the camera, and spend my refund money on other stuff.

Sounds like your project can cope with a buggy camera, thats fine, but why do you need to try and be little the notion of fair indusrty standard consumer rights?



Mike Brennan

 

[Ed Blythe]

The mantra here is that if it is cheap then accept problems.

OR spend more money for equivalent technology or lesser technology together with a) the reliability that they bring and b) the loss of modular capabilities of a system that is always changing and (hopefully!) improving.

Seems to me that a necessary trade-off for the camera - not just for the price, but as an evolving thing - is that there will be options/components that work better in some situations than others at different points in time.

Some say that film is an unstable capture medium - but you take the risk that there's no leaks in the mag and that the loader won't open the wrong can.

Which is not to falsely paraphrase you, Mike. Agreed that the above mantra is very risky (and there are probably a lot of fans jumping in without thinking it through). But there's risks worth taking and risks that aren't. Don't know whether you're going to find a customer returns policy that is going to reach as far as you want it to. The camera functions well in some conditions, not so well in others. Maybe you shoot perfectly happily for a few months then your next film has lots of police sirens and gunshots. Should you be able to return it now that it doesn't meet your next set of requirements, even though you knew about the rolling shutter issues going in? (Again, not to misquote you - I assume you are thinking more about unknown issues coming to light which prove fatal (which I think is not that likely, but agree that it's still possible)).

 

[Finner]

Digital FX ,

it is more than a $17k camera if you have to equip with good lenses and have a second unit.

I don't trade value for money for reliability in my buiness plan UNLESS the client is totally on board with the new technology.

The mantra here is that if it is cheap then accept problems.

Please dont assume what I know and dont know about the camera.

My intentions are pretty obvious arent they, to establish a path for users who are unhappy with the kit to return it.
No hidden agendas here!

Why should I wait for a year just because I fear I wont get my money back if the camera is unreliable? If the camera is for sale then consumer rights apply.

I am heartened that pros are taking risks but I dont see why we cant agree on a more solid refund plan....


Mike Brennan

Seems fairly obvious that the red one is not a good choice for you. I have shot with the F23 and it is very good. I would suggest you purchase that camera instead. Difficult customers cost a bussiness much more then they make off them. If I was red I would run as far away from you as possible.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

it is more than a $17k camera if you have to equip with good lenses and have a second unit.

Cost is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I prefer to look at RED as about a $20K camera. You will want the CF module and an ARRI baseplate and a few other bits and pieces. That makes the camera itself come in around $20K, not including taxes and whatnot that vary from one region and purchase situation to another.

Factoring lenses, second units, etc.. Those are not camera specific considerations. All cameras that fall into this classification (35mm PL mount), whether they be digital or film, require the use of interchangeable lenses. You will incur this cost no matter what camera you acquire to fit the need of a 35mm PL system. If you choose, you can opt for Nikon or other lens options on RED, still doesn't change the situation though.

The cost of a complete setup as you may need could vary... But the camera itself will cost about $20K. Some people already have lenses, support systems, etc.. They only need to buy a $20K camera to drop into their established setups. If you're finding that you need to spend $60K to get a RED setup working the way you would like, then it means you're probably just starting out with buying all your own equipment. Is that a wise decision? Only you can answer that, it's your business.

I don't trade value for money for reliability in my buiness plan UNLESS the client is totally on board with the new technology.

It seems like you and your client need to decide if RED is the right tool for the job. Time to rent one and see what's up.

The mantra here is that if it is cheap then accept problems.

No, the mantra here is that it's cheap and there are limitations. Jim just gave us an entire world of possibility, to expect the rest of the universe is a bit unreasonable.

Problems, bugs, workflow issues are all not acceptable in the end. But the cameras are still in beta, the workflow is in beta and incomplete. This is why RED has their policy of allowing reservation holders to indefinitely delay their purchase. If the camera and workflow don't fit your needs right now, you can wait until they do before you buy.

My intentions are pretty obvious arent they, to establish a path for users who are unhappy with the kit to return it.
No hidden agendas here!

A path already exists, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish. And I find it unlikely that someone with a non-defective camera would wish to return it anyway, makes more sense to sell it within the current market.

Why should I wait for a year just because I fear I wont get my money back if the camera is unreliable? If the camera is for sale then consumer rights apply.

And what consumer rights would those be? The current workflow situation with the camera is hardly a secret, if the camera isn't ready for your needs don't buy it. This is not consumer hardware, it is professional hardware. And for what it's worth, there are several workflows and means to use this camera right now. What many are waiting on are not so much a way to work with the camera, but a way to do it with lower cost tools they already own or in a more integrated workflow setup.

I am heartened that pros are taking risks but I dont see why we cant agree on a more solid refund plan....

What is it that you're looking for? Most of the legal junk you're pouring over in RED's policies are standard business fare. Nothing unusual or out of the ordinary. They already have a return policy in place.. It's simple, if you're unhappy you can send your camera back. Yes, there are restrictions such as less than 25 hours on the camera. Not unusual here. Otherwise they would have people buying a couple cameras, shooting a couple projects, maybe even a feature and then simply returning them. Ah, nearly free camera rental, eh?

 

[laguun]

There are thousands of waiting red-customerr who would take a red any second, many of them offering much more money to get a red -now- than buying a red costs.

therefore, the topic is pretty hypothetical - if you think you need a better or different camera then you should make some golddollares or euros by selling it. returning it to red would reduce your profit as of now.

also, if you want to try out the camera before buying, renting would be the best way to do so.

to keep prices for buyers low, i would welcome it if red doesnt allow returns basing on delivered cameras. decide before you pay. test before you order.

p.s.
what was the issue which was blocking your 900? we bought the 750 the moment it came out and never had any issues in the last 5 years.

 

[Michael Brennan]

To answer some of the off topic comments.
I know the current guild is buggy. I know its beta. I didn't get an order in early for this reason.

With lots of RED cameras out there we have to be in the game and for some buying kit rather than renting is a preffered business plan.


Sure there are plenty of reservation holders who will buy a used RED now, but my post refers to a situation in 12 months time.
What if RED (including post software) is still unstable and by then there are 4000 buggy cameras in use.


The cost of equipping for 35mm digital format to my liking is indeed more than just the cost of the camera for someone like me without many 35mm lenses and accessories. ie my existing 4x4 filters can't be used with the new zoom. So the $$ risk is not low.

Back on topic.
Perhaps a criteria is that any persistent camera fault where you can lose a shot, despite following manufacturers instructions to a letter is a sound legal reason to return a camera.


The thread is about returning a camera in a years time, if this kind of thing is happening rather than to rely on an "ebay warranty".

Thanks for the advice on if I am suited or not suited to shooting with RED.
There is always something to learn, especially about RED and RED users, even for someone like me who has been demoing and shooting HD since Cannes 2001 and pretty much exclusively shooting commercials and docs with electronic cameras since 1981.




Mike Brennan

 

[Stuart English]

Red-one

Red-one

..it is R&D and engineeering issues that is in question. ...My aphrehension is based on the unknown % chance of numerous others also being unhappy and wanting returns.

Fact is the RED-ONE camera works - and our customers have shot projects from natural history and commercials and feature films, from 2K thru 4K, with and without sound.

Are there any bugs? Yes. Is there a workflow ? Yes. Is this camera doing combinations of things that no other camera/recorder in the world can do? Yes.

So the question ultimately comes down to - are the small number of bugs remaining, and the existing workflow options acceptable to you? That's your call.

 

[Mike Gifford]

Digital FX ,



My intentions are pretty obvious arent they, to establish a path for users who are unhappy with the kit to return it.
No hidden agendas here!




Mike Brennan

Mike

as a subscriber to High Definition magazine of which you are the editor, I would never dispute your knowledge or experience with HD cameras.

I have no doubt that articles about RED help sell your magazine - and I am curious that the last time you ran a largely negative article about RED in High Definition magazine, it followed some active and probing posting from yourself on Reduser.

I look forward to the next issue!

 

[Michael Brennan]

Fact is the RED-ONE camera works - and our customers have shot projects from natural history and commercials and feature films, from 2K thru 4K, with and without sound.

Are there any bugs? Yes. Is there a workflow ? Yes. Is this camera doing combinations of things that no other camera/recorder in the world can do? Yes.

So the question ultimately comes down to - are the small number of bugs remaining, and the existing workflow options acceptable to you? That's your call.

Yes camera looks like it is being debugged faster than post software.

After build 16 I'd hope to take some responsibility for reccomending a shoot and post on RED. As it stands now it would be the clients responsibility.

If you have every faith that the system will be reliable in a year why not say that you will honour industry standard levels of reliability for electronic cameras? No one is expecting a 100% bug free camera and post workflow.


Mike Brennan

 

[donatello b]

"I doubt if many REDusers have production insurance for casual projects and self shooting."

you might already be insured and you do not know it ... i shoot for fun ... my home insurance covers equipment , rentals , liability - as of now i have no special film/video equipment added to normal home policy ... the only catch is they do NOT cover me if i use the equipment for business or if i rent out camera or the project i'm doing has intent to make $$ ... i've rented couple hundred K by the time you add grip truck , lens etc ... i've had them issue insurance liability certificate so i could shoot at oakland museum, parks in berkeley etc = all at no extra charge - covered under home owners insurance ...they also cover persons ( including actors) that are helping and that includes if i pay them - as long as you do not promise points, profits , any kind of intent to make $$ ....
so if it's your personal (fun) project and you have no intent to make $$ check with your insurance agent to see if your current policy covers you ...

 

[Colin C]

Fair call. How is the unboxing experience going for you Chosei?

How is Spike doing?