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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Raven vs Sony FS7 vs Blackmagic 4.6k

Andrey Blanco said:
Why do you think RED was force to give away 4.5K in the raven: because they are Such a Nice Guys?

No Way Man, is because they saw how few people was exited about 4K and they realized about their mistake, I'm pretty sure they can out put 5K RAW from RAVEN f they want to...

This is Business Sir. Sorry if you are feed with Marketing






$2K? You will need at least $16K to match a $8K URSA MINI shoulder rig. If the BM Claims about Dynamic Range are True I really doubt anybody will notice the difference between the two cameras. the few footage from URSA 4.6K looks pretty good to me.
Click to expand...


Answer the question. In what area are BM competing with Red?

How would you go about outputting 5k from a 4.5k sensor? You seem to know some secret.


Also, the clips from the 4.6k are nothing special so far. If they look great to you then that's brilliant, but I found them uninspiring and not a patch on my FS7.
 
To the OP: I have dragon and fs7 .
I really préfère the footage of the Epic D. Of course . But I can't take it out on every single project. And that's a deal breaker for one who want to buy his 1st and only camera and that don't have a specific use. If you'd say that you were shooting tons of commercial+ music I'd say go for Raven. But if you want something versatile that can be use on pretty much ANY project (including commercials and music video) Id say go for the fs7 and rent out a RED when needed.

Sensitivity, codec, ergonomy are the + sides of the Sony.
Definition, raw are the +sides of RED.

But who wants a formula 1 when he only drive in mud road.
 
Milano Questa said:

Here's some test footage from the 4.6k BM camera.
The BM will obviously be sharper than the raven. The raven maxes out at 4K in 16:9 and DCI 4K aspect ratio.
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Raven is now 4.5k ... also does 120fps at 4.5k where as BM maxes out at 60fps.

I have realized that red's .R3D codec is priceless. Trying to edit the jankey compressed file type that sony cams record into crushes my computer, where as the R3D is buttery smooth raw goodness.
 
Bm makes cameras with serious moire issues, that sucks. I'd consider anything else
 
Brian Merlen said:
Bm makes cameras with serious moire issues, that sucks. I'd consider anything else
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Blanket statements like these do no good. The Ursa mini (4k), Ursa (big ursa) and the production camera (BMPC) do not suffer from moire in almost all situations and in the extreme case when it does happen, it's minimal. The 2.5k cam and the pocket camera do suffer much more from moire. And from all reports from the testers the Ursa mini 4.6k and Ursa 4.6k are better than the Ursa mini 4k and Ursa when it comes to moire.
 
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Agree with Ben, it's quite speculative at this point.

But to chime in anyways because it's fun, as a Sony F55 owner and shooter of RED and Canon cameras I can tell you the BMC will look more filmic than the FS7 in most cases, and the Raven will probably look as good as the BMC. The jury is still out until people start shooting with it.

sgamut3.cine was a godsend to ending the troublesome sgamut color shifting when grading on Sony but nonetheless to me it still looks videoy. Sure maybe some 3rd party emulation luts will help the matter but the codec itself doesn't compete with a RAW based one. Let's not fool ourselves here.
 
darren scott said:
Blanket statements like these do no good. The Ursa mini (4k), Ursa (big ursa) and the production camera (BMPC) do not suffer from moire in almost all situations and in the extreme case when it does happen, it's minimal. The 2.5k cam and the pocket camera do suffer much more from moire. And from all reports from the testers the Ursa mini 4.6k and Ursa 4.6k are better than the Ursa mini 4k and Ursa when it comes to moire.
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I had issues with 2.5k and 4K models first hand myself. I don't want to derail the thread but I don't consider them a great choice and in general comparing reds to cameras substantially cheaper is silly. I do not see anyone trying to rationalize bm minis over Alexa mini so I'm not sure why people do it with red. Ravens cheap but not bm cheap. I like resolve but bm cameras seem to only hurt production from my experience
 
As a red and both fs7 owner,

--- good things about fs7

Both of the cam has cons and pros. I'd recommend you to get FS7, if you used to be DSLR owner. If you were in industry and you would like to expand your business into narrative, than go for red.

FS7 is better than RED in terms of ergonomics, fast post(Alexa Luts), sound wise.

You can't beilive how greatful it is to have 4 channel sound (4 XLR inputs in camera) in camera. you can simply put three lavs and a shot gun in a same time. Red Can't do.

I am selling my FS7 kit for 8K including all the accs, okay...- Do you think you can buy red camera that has decent sound(audio inputs)+ battery + memory cards + evf+ shoulder rig+ rain coat with 10k? IMPOSSIBLE.

Even, you get Raven, you need to spend at least 4-5K more in order to use the camera decently. (ONLY V MOUNT BATTERIES WILL COST YOU 2K MINIMUM)

Let's talk about image from FS7.

.... It's good enough for most of case. 14.5 stops of dynamic range is great. Cine EI gives you good image, you will love it.

Furthermore... You don't waste your time for black shading!!!! (I hate black shading calibration with RED.)

NOT ONLY THAT SONY MAKES SMALL MIRRORLESS CAMERAS!!! A7SII, A7RII.... Jesus.... if you have 10k, you can buy FS7+ A7SII (B-CAM)

Sony systems are affordable, and you can get great image out of with what you pay for. (I invested total $15K for fs7+A7RII, and these gave me a lots of job this year, I already made the much more than I spent.)

....
....
....

But, I am selling my fs7.

When I compare my previous works, most people liked my RED images, not the sony, nor black magic... It's kind of interesting how the image come out from Red.

It's simple... You get what you pay for.
 
Why limit the debate to these three cameras? I'd consider an Alexa classic used as well in the 20k price range ready to shoot
 
I think Brian is speaking a lot of sense. I wouldn't be surprised if an Alexa classic would put you in the running for more potential gigs than Raven/FS7/UrsaMini/Scarlet and likely Epic, unless it's gimbal/aerial stuff (which is the new slo-mo, which was the new Anamorphic "look", which was the new shallow DOF, which was the new "film look", ad nauseam)... For shooting your own personal productions, Raven ticks a lot of boxes (maybe not as much as Ursa Mini though), but I still think an Alexa would hire out better (regardless of region). Though to be fair it is $20k *used*, whereas the other cameras are new for $5k-$15k shootable.

As for moire on BM cameras (4k+), simply put, it's over-exaggerated... It's far less of a problem than CMOS smear, red colour noise (requiring DEB), and orbs around highlights on Dragon (watch Jessica Jones; tons of noticeable purple smear streaks). And if its the only thing preventing you from considering a BM, Mosaic Engineering has 3rd party OLPFs for BM cameras (and I'm sure they'll have one for the mini if it necessitates one.) OH, and the plus side is that 4k non-OLPF is perceptibly as sharp as 5k (if not sharper), so I wouldn't be surprised if 4.6k non-OLPF cut together with red 6k easily...

And after all of that, until we have raw frames, most of this convo is moot anyway.
 
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Daniel Kelly Brown said:
Raven is now 4.5k ... also does 120fps at 4.5k where as BM maxes out at 60fps.

I have realized that red's .R3D codec is priceless. Trying to edit the jankey compressed file type that sony cams record into crushes my computer, where as the R3D is buttery smooth raw goodness.
Click to expand...

You are missing (Michael higher up too) what Milano is saying. Milano says that Raven is "only" a UHD, or 4k camera if you are looking for a 16:9 or 4k DCI project frame aspect ratio.

I think he's very well aware that the Raven is wider now. The extra width is nice, but it only really comes into play if you are going for a wider format. The exception would be strikt side-to-side reframing, where you could use the extra width for in a 16:9 project.
 
A really great point. By brother in law has picked up two Alexas this past year at $20-25K, and he's gotten a bunch of great gigs just because he has those cameras. You can get a ready to shoot Alexa Classic for around $22K these days; add $8K for the support, batteries, and peripherals, and you're coming out to $30K. That's quite a bit more than a Raven, but if you're open to co-owning situations, you can have a 50% share in an Alexa for $15K, the same price as a kitted Raven. I'm guessing even with the 50% share you're going to end out with better gigs and better money with the Alexa.

BUT, the Raven still has a couple advantages. It's better as a single-operator camera; it's lighter so the support is going to be much cheaper every time (you could use an Easyrig Mini for $1300 instead of the Easryrig 3.0 for $3500). Redcode. And you would be the sole owner...

Lots of great options!

Brian Merlen said:
Why limit the debate to these three cameras? I'd consider an Alexa classic used as well in the 20k price range ready to shoot
Click to expand...
 
I think a comparison of these cameras is fair, and is likely something many folks are considering. So here is my 2 cents, because I've been putting some thought into these cameras specifically. Overall, I feel like the Raven is going to end up serving a somewhat different purpose than the Blackmagic Ursa Mini 4.5K and FS7.

We own 3 x Epic Dragon's and a Scarlet Dragon. For the most part, we shoot Commercials, which the Epic Dragon is perfect for. The Scarlet mostly ends up playing as a B-Cam on "Talking Head" shoots (and is a hell of a value when you don't need slo-mo at 6K). When other people rent Cameras from us, they mostly rent the Epic. So we're a very RED centric house.

But recently we've tried to take the Epic & Scarlet out on more "Run & Gun" type shoots, and I'll say that they're not really made for that. I know people do it (and we do it because frankly we own all these cameras and they are avail), but it's not ideal. Folks in the docu-TV world have mostly been using C300's for this kind of work. But the C300 is only 1920x1080, doesn't do slo-mo at 1920, and has pretty strange ergonomics (camera builds up not back . . .). It was a big improvement over using a DSLR when introduced, but is getting pretty long in the tooth now in terms of features and resolution. And now the C300 MKII is roughly twice as much as the FS7 and Ursa Mini (give or take . . .)

So, I've considered buying 2 x FS7's (or 2 x Blackmagic URSA Mini's) for more Documentary / Run & Gun TV type work. I've had a chance to try out the FS7 and the ergonomics are great for a run and gun kind of shoot. And way easier in 1-person operation (with no AC, etc . . ) than a Epic or Scarlet body. I would consider both of these cameras as being the 4K Run & Gun Camera (with nice overcranking options) that folks have been looking for. So more of a replacement for the C300 than as a replacement for an Epic. With the Ursa Mini allegedly finally shipping pretty soon, we can get a real world comparison between the FS7 and Ursa Mini 4.5K. Shooting ProRes internally without a need for a separate module could be a huge plus for the Ursa Mini. But let's see how good the image is with this new 4.5K sensor . . .

On a big spot, you'd probably be hard pressed to get anyone (client, agency, crew) to shoot anything but a RED or ARRI. For a small market spot, you could probably shoot whatever works for the budget :)

So, I think if you're mostly shooting small crew Run & Gun type work, the FS7 or Ursa Mini is a better bet, based on the price of a small but workable rig, ergonomics, 4K resolution, overcrank frame rates, and easy to deal with shoot codecs (ProRes, etc). I think the Raven is going to end up having the same ergonomics as the Epic and Scarlet, so not great for this kind of work, but it is going to be a hell of a value for folks who already own RED accessories, and need a B-Cam or need another body for a Drone, etc. And with the Raven, it could be pretty interesting what people end up using it for. Overall, all this choice and competition in the market is going to be nothing but good for the consumer!
 
Wait!? Are clients choosing basic 2k Alexa classic over epic dragon ? Epic-mx?
There is still demand for that camera cause I am seeing a lot of used ones on sale these days ? I figured it was EOL and owners are trying to get rid of them ?
 
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