RED Projector...

[Corrado Silveri]

Just a simple survey: How many of you had actually see a 4k monitor (or a 4k Projection) with adeguate images onto it?

 

[M Most]

The world is more than the US.

Yes, that's a good point. I'm unaware of the specific distribution and financing structures in place in other markets, but my guess would be that they are also largely reliant on and controlled by a distribution apparatus that "sets the rules" due to its pervasiveness. I am a bit more aware of a market like India, where "E-Cinema" took hold some time ago, which is not DCI compliant and a bit more freely available, but at a severely reduced quality level. And in the UK, there are some major multiplex chains that are in a very similar situation to that of the US. But you are correct, the world is a lot more than the US, and when I posted that, the US was clearly my focus, as that is where I live and it is the market I best understand. Then again, the post I was responding to was also from someone in the US...

We had widescreen TV a decade before the HD standard was even defined.

In Europe, that's quite true. It's not particularly true in the US, which, once again, was the focus of my comments. It could also be sensibly argued that the 625/50 PAL transmission system was designed to solve some of the limitations of NTSC (not just resolution), and so it was much more adaptable to larger and wider screens, as well as being of a sufficient quality level that HD was not as attractive as an alternative as it was in NTSC countries like the US and Canada. And to a large degree, that's still the case. The US has always been about "bigger is better," so the larger screen sizes that HD permitted was also attractive. In Europe, not so much.

 

[Eric Lange]

Ok so I have worked with very high quality and high res s-3d data sources for over 20 years and I can categorically say that 4k display for s-3d in the cinema (especially) is going to make a hell of difference. From a psycho-visual standpoint, the fine grain high contrast well defined 2d and 3d texture is crucial to enable a full stereoscopic/3d “percept” in the mind of the viewer. The Dual passive systems that are prevalent in the cimemas right now frankly fall rather short of that. The proposed RED laser projection laser system in terms of physical experience (described as a dynamic stereo Cibachrome) should far surpass anything thus far experienced in the theatre. 4K is definitely the key to that as well.

Competition, Market and Deployment…

This article http://nerdtwilight.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/realds-3d-promise-and-peril/

[The first half of the article is good and the second half is the usual yada yada yada type debates on future of S-3d].

The article outlines some of RealD’s strategy and thinking as well as laying out the scale of the market place. What is noteworthy is the partnership with a substantial financing company
“Digital Cinema Implementation Partners”, or DCIP. These guys provided financing and funding for the digital conversion for 14,000 domestic theater screens operated by AMC, Cinemark and Regal.

Quote of a quote here:

“As of December 25, 2009, there were approximately 16,000 theater screens using digital cinema projectors out of approximately 149,000 total theater screens worldwide, of which 4,286 were RealD-enabled (increasing to 5,966 RealD-enabled screens as of June 1, 2010). In 2009, motion picture exhibitors installed approximately 7,500 digital cinema projectors, an approximately 86% growth rate from 2008, and in 2008, motion picture exhibitors installed approximately 2,300 digital cinema projectors, an approximately 36% growth rate from 2007. Digital Cinema Implementation Partners, or DCIP, recently completed its financing that is providing funding for the digital conversion of up to approximately 14,000 additional domestic theater screens operated by our licensees AMC, Cinemark and Regal. We believe the increasing number of theater screens to be financed by DCIP provides us with a significant opportunity to deploy additional RealD Cinema Systems and further our penetration of the domestic market.”

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1327471/000104746910006369/a2198608zs-1a.htm


This link above is RealD’s prospectus with the fed.

Page 91 is RealD’s analysis of the “competition”

“Competition

The motion picture and consumer electronics markets are highly competitive, and we face competitive threats and pricing pressure in these markets.
Our primary competitors for our RealD Cinema Systems include Dolby, Xpand, MasterImage, IMAX and others. As of December 25, 2009, these competitors had enabled approximately 1,960, 1,560, 500, 150 and 150 worldwide theater screens, respectively, as compared to our 4,286 RealD-enabled worldwide theater screens. Consumers may be more familiar with some of our competitors' brands in the motion picture industry. However, we believe we differentiate ourselves from our competitors in the motion picture industry for reasons that include the following:

•
we provide premium 3D technologies that are highly regarded by licensees and others in the motion picture industry;
•
our RealD Cinema Systems deliver superior light output providing for a high quality image and enabling display on larger theater screens with one projector than most competing technologies;
•
we offer motion picture exhibitors a licensing model that includes technological upgrades and maintenance and reduces their capital expenditures and the risk they may purchase equipment that will become obsolete;
•
we typically have multiple RealD-enabled screens at each theater location compared to one 3D-enabled screen for some of our competitors, which allows us to accommodate the increasing number of 3D motion picture being released simultaneously and enables motion picture exhibitors to expand successful motion pictures to more RealD-enabled screens; “


I think on many counts the things that RealD are stating as strengths will indeed be viewed (technically) as weaknesses in comparison with a RED based 4k laser projection system. RealD has been super important to get 3d in the cinema and digital projection. I wonder if RealD will go Laser or whether they will stick doggedly to circular polarized switching units? Ultimately if the RED laser projector has a brand identity that the movie goers can indentify then I think they will choose to go “laser”. I think the world wide opportunities for RED laser projector especially for S-3d are immense. But for someone to really get it you have to really see it in the flesh; I wonder if this is a large part of the motivation for the RED “world Tour”, which I’m looking forward to putting an eye or two (in) on very much. Will be interesting to see how it all unfolds and the buzz it will leave in its wake.

Cheers,

Eric

@Corrado Silveri... (bit of a right and left brained moment (my apologies)...

I have routinely worked with very high end imagery on dual HD projection set ups mosaiced together using 4 projectors for dual linear polarized s-3d as well as shutter glasses. The source imagery is very large format precision s-3d and down sampled lossless, so yup in width but not in height so much… so I am absolutely geared up to get to see and run with RED 4k laser projection for s-3d… big time

 

[Stuart English]

Agreed, reasoned arguments not bickering please. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...77907195969915

IMO, like cameras there will be a tipping point - it may be 3D or economics or distribution workflow - that drives wide adoption.

 

[M Most]

Humm, I'll have to get a new dictionary then.

As "apathy" isn't a word I'd have used to describe people's reaction to 4K images and the prototype RED projector ..

To my mind this is a parallel argument to "why use a 4K" camera, when "HD is good enough". it's true that most cameras sold are not 4K, and that will be true of displays in future too; but there is still a significant number of people who will buy based on image quality, just because of what that provides as a visual experience and as a driver for their business.

I would put it a different way. "Apathy" is probably not the right word. But I think the original poster's point might have been that eventually, all TV's sold might be of a higher resolution than current HD formats. At that point nobody will care because it's all they'll be able to buy. Perhaps a better analogy is the cell phone market. A year or two ago, you could buy a "traditional" cell phone fairly easily, and a "smart phone" (i.e., iPhone, Android, Windows Phone, etc.) was a premium item. Today, just about every phone is a "smart phone," and if you go into almost any store, it's pretty much all you'll find, and at all kinds of price points. So many people today buy a smart phone because it's the only thing available, not because it's necessarily something they want (I know my 89 year old mother definitely preferred a simple cell phone, and is now stuck with an Android model she can barely understand). That's not what I would call "apathy," but it is not what I would call consumer's choice, either.

 

[M Most]

Agreed, reasoned arguments not bickering please.

Thank you Stuart, and Tom too. I completely agree.

 

[Eric Lange]

Agreed, reasoned arguments not bickering please. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...77907195969915

IMO, like cameras there will be a tipping point - it may be 3D or economics or distribution workflow - that drives wide adoption.

In our case if it vaguely does what it says it does on the tin then we are in. I.e. in such a case there is no tipping point it’s more of a MUST HAVE. Or scramble to build things around the RED offering.

High quality output and experience is absolutely key to what we do and want to further supply in the future.

Obviously the full cinema units will be very robust, but I am also hoping that there might be something in between home and cinema in terms of reliability and high number of hours running so the projectors can be used for many different types of installation where massive light output is not such an issue, (but maybe with lasers this is a no brainer by comparison anyway).

Cheers,

Eric


A 4k laser cave would be awsome too...

p.s. video link does not load for some reason maybe I'm missing the obvious...?

 

[M Most]

Digital Cinema Implementation Partners, or DCIP, recently completed its financing that is providing funding for the digital conversion of up to approximately 14,000 additional domestic theater screens operated by our licensees AMC, Cinemark and Regal.

I would point out that DCIP is partnered with Fox, Warner Bros., Paramount, and Universal. Thus helping to illustrate my previous points.

 

[Eric Lange]

I would point out that DCIP is partnered with Fox, Warner Bros., Paramount, and Universal. Thus helping to illustrate my previous points.

For sure... so it really interests me how Jim will approach things.

If you look at where for example StereoGraphics, Crystal Eyes, Lenny Lipton, Starks (of course) and RealD and the DLP projection technologies all came about from smaller platforms and organizations, then RED has the capability to wedge itself in there and start to gain “market share”. I think India (ultimately) is going to be a very fertile market.. and China… I can’t guess what Jim’s position on RED projection products would be there? Korea also…

Ta.

E.

 

[M Most]

]I wonder if RealD will go Laser or whether they will stick doggedly to circular polarized switching units?

The "laser" you refer to is a projection technology. RealD is not a projector, it is a technology that is implemented on various types of projection to enable stereoscopic images. On a DLP Cinema unit, it is implemented as a screen that synchronizes with the input stream and changes polarization on each successive frame. On a Sony unit, it achieves the same result by splitting the 4K projection imager into two halves and applies opposite polarization on each via a special lens arrangement - once again, not an intrusive change to the projector, and not a projector in itself. RealD also licenses its name to various television manufacturers to enable a passive stereoscopic presentation on those sets by using a lenticular screen to achieve the reverse polarization. The point is that RealD has never been about a specific projection technology, it has been about add ons to any projection system to enable stereo. Their technology is based on image modification, not image creation.

 

[Stuart English]

p.s. video link does not load for some reason maybe I'm missing the obvious...?

Try this
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915

 

[Eric Lange]

The "laser" you refer to is a projection technology. RealD is not a projector, it is a technology that is implemented on various types of projection to enable stereoscopic images. On a DLP Cinema unit, it is implemented as a screen that synchronizes with the input stream and changes polarization on each successive frame. On a Sony unit, it achieves the same result by splitting the 4K projection imager into two halves and applies opposite polarization on each via a special lens arrangement - once again, not an intrusive change to the projector, and not a projector in itself. RealD also licenses its name to various television manufacturers to enable a passive stereoscopic presentation on those sets by using a lenticular screen to achieve the reverse polarization. The point is that RealD has never been about a specific projection technology, it has been about add ons to any projection system to enable stereo. Their technology is based on image modification, not image creation.

I am very familiar with all their technologies and patents for the past 20 years (plus). To me the idea that Z-screen Bezel for a CRT monitor that gave weak stereo became the corner stone of S-3d modern cinema is mind blowing (I have to admit). I have met Lenny Lipton on several occasions, and I can tell you that if they had the capability to build and develop a laser projection systems for S-3d then they most certainly would have (without doubt). Their technical business model is not so much about add-ons, it’s purely about facilitating S-3d by whatever means and making it profitable. How far or how deep they go with that is their bag. I am very grateful for the original existence of StereoGraphics and RealD, but the future is a different “place”, and I think 4k and quality and good contrast and good light output is going to be absolutely key to the “cinematic experience”. RealD is a business just like any other. From a technical standpoint most people don’t realize the pervasive limits of circular polarized systems.

Ta.

Eric

 

[Eric Lange]

Try this
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-572077907195969915

That sooo apt… ‘No I’m not.... I could be arguing in my spare time…” (classic stuff)

Hmmm

I need to get stuff done,

Cheers,

Eric

 

[Aaron Fritz]

if RED does the same Modular thinking as they did for there camera, I would be quite interesting if they could stack the lasers for higher lumen.

For example a 100 inch screen will not need as high a lumen compared to a 200 inch. Also this helps with Throw Distances. If you need a further throw, just ad a another lumen Module.

Hmm could be very interesting.

 

[Steven Caesare]

. One of the main things that sold HD to the public was the wider screen, which represented an obvious, tangible difference between what they had and what they could have. 4K has no such distinguishing characteristic. It's just a nicer image, but really only appreciated on screen sizes larger than most people even have room for. But for most people, it's the same image.

This is an interesting thread.

I chose to quote the above because I don't think it's strictly true.

Affordable widescreen sets/projectors were 720 for a LOONG time... and by and large people adopted them for the improvements (both in wide-screen real estate and resolution improvement) over SD. I know, because I was finishing my basement when the first real high-end "consumer affordable" 1080P projector (the Sony qualia) came out at $30K. Within a year or two, Sony broke the low-end barrier again with the $10K VPL100 (aka "Ruby"). A short time later the $5K VPL50 (the "Pearl") came out, and I bought it.

A run at affordable 1080 devices then started. In that time, LOTS of people had already adopted widescreen 720p sets, yet many of those same people upgraded to 1080 because it was superior (even if I bet they couldn't really tell when viewing their 42" set from 8-10 feet accross the room.)

So, I suspect there will indeed be a market for 4K, even if it's distinguishing characteristic is that "the number is bigger". And with display sizes (as well as projector installations) creeping upward, I bet people will even be able to tell the difference. Heck, people disntinguish between phones and tablets based on resolution all the time... it's a metric they are aware of.

-sc

 

[Steven Caesare]

huh?? IMAX Theaters, hello? People pay a premium for premium content. You are saying this is a bad idea? How? Why?

I don't get these arguments. Im not saying I agree, but in my town. (maybe cuz it rains more than elsewhere) people GLADLY pay a premium
for better (perceived) quality. The line for 3D versus IMAX 3D (which btw is impossible to tell the difference, other than a slight curved screen.
Not a full IMAX screen...

If people are willing to pay for a PREMIUM experience... why how is this a mistake? I don't get it.

There's a novelty factor. People will pay a premium for "the new hotness". After that wears off and every mall theater can afford a 4K/3D/hologpraphic projector, the oportnity to upcharge for the experience will evaoprate until something new ("Digitial Smell-O-Vision HD!") comes out.

-sc

 

[Craig Schober]

So, I suspect there will indeed be a market for 4K, even if it's distinguishing characteristic is that "the number is bigger". And with display sizes (as well as projector installations) creeping upward, I bet people will even be able to tell the difference. Heck, people disntinguish between phones and tablets based on resolution all the time... it's a metric they are aware of.

-sc

I'm sure there will be a market but only for lazy consumers at first. I stayed out of the HD TV game for years because I could never get a real demo of a TV running true HD in any stores. For years they would pull SD off the air or cable and upscale it to 720 and 1080 sets. And back then, upscaling circuitry sucked so it always looked horrible. That didn't stop some consumers from buying because the salesperson told them the horrible image they were seeing was actually pristine HD.

So unless Red or someone else gets those native 4K sources into stores, I won't be buying and neither will the majority of HD enthusiasts.

 

[Aaron Fritz]

For me its not about the 4K, until material comes out. It is for the Laser engine that will last 10,000 hours or more and once its calibrated its calibrated.

Projector bulbs now only last roughly 2000-3000 hours. During that time the lumen loss is huge. Even in the first 100 hours. Also the plus of being able to turn it on/off whenever needed not worrying about killing the bulb or your hours.

 

[Eric Lange]

Well for me..

CINEMA: I think obviously one of RED's major planks is in the 3d application market. I have worked with very high res sources and output in s-3d for a long time. I think the RED projector for s-3d will make circular polarized cinematic S-3d seem like we have been watching 2 1/2d through dirty dish water (I know that’s a bit of an inflammatory statement but I think in terms of the difference in experience that will be shown to be true). When folks actually get to experience the full potential of S-3d delivered via a laser projection system then I think S-3d will definitely be here to stay as the experience will be near mind blowing. Also I predict cinematographers and VFX and post will converge on much better “physcho-visual” content to make the experience so much better.


COMMERCIAL INSTALLATIONS: I would like to see the RED laser projectors occupy a similar space as BARCO for example. So for public outreach special S-3d installations, VR installations non-profit and government applications as well as high end visualization in the Oil and gas industry as well as in the pharmaceutical industry for drug design and research; commercial and corporate installations and the usual trade show and conference applications.


HOME APPLICATIONS: I don’t have a clear picture of this… I seem to remember something that Jim might have mentioned about rear projected sets. Jim also has patent(s) on interesting laser based eye wear… Or of course just straight up laser projector for the home.

S-3d for gaming right now is in its infancy… but I think within the next six years a much more immersive environment on a larger physical scale will be required. Hardcore gamers are very demanding, and I think in the future it will become socialy more acceptable to really go ALL OUT on gaming rigs and similar experiences.



Would be really interested to see and learn how these projection systems can function in one way or another against ambient lighting?

I/we have to see this thing…

Cheers,

Eric

 

[L. Langer]

RED Digital Cinema Personal 3D Viewer. Nuff said.