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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED future...

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Jannard said:
After finding Brook's post and reading it:

Some are already done.
Some are almost done
Some are in development
Some are on our list
Some are too expensive to do and stay at $17,500
A few will not be done.

Hope that helps...

Jim
Click to expand...

I would love to see what you could build if you sold it for $100,000.00.
 
Wait a second, I just re-read Brook's post and the vast majority of it is either software requests or accessory modification requests.

So what exactly on Brook's list would change the camera body away from being $17,500?
 
Actually, it is a combination of things, which would require new tooling and development. At some point, we would need to look at re-pricing the camera due to development costs, tooling and the manpower necessary to make the changes.

Most of these are already on our list to fix at no additional charge to our customers (me included).

I guess I would ask this question... what camera features vs. price point are we competing with?

Jim
 
To me, anything significantly less than the Sony cams now in place is great. It's easy to sell people on purchasing a camera (esp. with all accessories) for less than $45,000. So if you can stay below $25,000 for the camera, you are still WAY less than the $80,000 Sony bunch. That's just me.
 
Jannard said:
Actually, it is a combination of things, which would require new tooling and development. At some point, we would need to look at re-pricing the camera due to development costs, tooling and the manpower necessary to make the changes.

Most of these are already on our list to fix at no additional charge to our customers (me included).

I guess I would ask this question... what camera features vs. price point are we competing with?

Jim
Click to expand...
You definitely need to get off of the $17,500.00 figure. Although noble, I think that figure is limiting the options to actually create the product that you envisioned.
 
I'll keep that in mind... thanks for the support.

Jim
 
Awengert said:
You definitely need to get off of the $17,500.00 figure. Although noble, I think that figure is limiting the options to actually create the product that you envisioned.
Click to expand...

Truth be known... the camera is WAY better than I envisioned two years ago. There was no 4K to compact flash (had to record 4K out the RAW Data Port) and so many other improvements that I can't even think of them all. But. There is always room for improvement. And that is exactly what we will continue to do.

Our program is not perfect, but we keep aimed at perfection. We only hope our customers will embrace what we have accomplished so far, and be patient until we can accomplish more.

Jim
 
Awengert said:
You definitely need to get off of the $17,500.00 figure. Although noble, I think that figure is limiting the options to actually create the product that you envisioned.
Click to expand...
You're completely wrong. This $17,500.00 figure is what brought many of us here. No accomplishing that figure, it would be to frustrate so many too much. Without so many there wouldn't be Red.
 
Caesar said:
You're completely wrong. This $17,500.00 figure is what brought many of us here. No accomplishing that figure, it would be to frustrate so many too much. Without so many there wouldn't be Red.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
Don King said:
Agreed.
Click to expand...
So, we are sitting here with 100 cameras delivered, obviously in a beta stage. Problems have cropped up. Yes, they are being addressed. The original 100 will be replaced by updated models. Obviously the costs of this project are going way out of the original projections. I don't think that a price increase to deal with the issues that have manifested themselves is not out of order. You can't get the proformance of a Lambo for the price of a Chevy. That's just not realisic. I think this camera can be a Lambo. Why not increase the price and have the latitude to build it.
 
...and Red needs so many people buying it.
 
Exactly. Or would there be any chance for thousands of cameras sold even before the delivery... running the project "in a beta stage"?
 
Jannard said:
Truth be known... the camera is WAY better than I envisioned two years ago. There was no 4K to compact flash (had to record 4K out the RAW Data Port) and so many other improvements that I can't even think of them all. But. There is always room for improvement. And that is exactly what we will continue to do.

Our program is not perfect, but we keep aimed at perfection. We only hope our customers will embrace what we have accomplished so far, and be patient until we can accomplish more.

Jim
Click to expand...

The funny thing is: Jim started with a lowpriced indie-camera and promised to build it for 17500$. I guess, this main part will be the most cheapest beside all other gadgets people are willing to pay for like ARRI Mattes and stuff for 5000$ or lenses for 100'000$ ASO. So, if RED will put in the near future more and more gadgets inside this incredible machine, nowbody should be surprised and it would be fair to pay for all additional ideas
 
There are many issues that need to be addressed that I would like that the cures are not restricted to having to deal with the $17,500.00 figure. Sorry, but the stakes in my business are much higher than that. I need a product that I have no problem putting my name on.
 
love post #128..made me laugh out loud (@1:25 am in a very quiet, baby sleeping,house

love post #128..made me laugh out loud (@1:25 am in a very quiet, baby sleeping,house

my favorite post was number6, post 128, i echo his thought, although my grandfather said that in greek. which i could not understand.

this is a very interesting thread to me as i feel particularly blessed to even know about this camera never mind having it take me literally around the globe.

i was on set today with another one of the biggest commercial/music video directors that just made a huge investment in 35mm gear and he was completely blown away with the camera that we have today, as we are. he was pissed that he wasted a million dollars. he wants a red so bad i am sure in the coming weeks he may offer someone cold hard cash for their rig or their place in line.

as a producer maybe i am naive about what to expect technically from this camera, but all of the people that have used this camera (#0031) that i have come in contact with are 100% happy with what they got and were overwhelmed with it's capabilities. they were not asking for more features or bitching and moaning about this and that, they were in AWE, as i am of what it is capable of RIGHT NOW.

for the record...I was happy on nov 2. when we got playback (and even before that, sept 7 actually), everything else is gravy to me....i have gotten my moneys worth and then some.

thank you very much.
 
The camera is great. I love it and I've never lain eyes on it. But a lot of these issues would likely crop up if the people using your Red had more time to sit down and look at every little detail like some of these folks here do. They too, in part, are making the camera better.

Staying under $25,000 would still be feasible for a lot of people. Especially the one's making a big splash in the industry like the commercial filmmakers and the production companies like OffHollywood who I'm sure would have invested in something like that. A 70% increase in price sounds like a lot- and maybe it should be implemented to buyers starting from here on out, but adding a few grand for a far superior product is reasonable and would still be a knockout price.

I can understand the concern for added price for some, but for the camera we would be getting, it's doable. Not to mention, it would help the Red Team hire more people to get more of these flaws fixed that are complained about on a daily basis.
 
I'm of two minds about a price hike.

Let's call these Story A and Story B.

a) I once ran a company where I was in the seminar business.

Before we raised prices we sold a one-day seminar for $1500. It cost us $1300 to put on including follow-up costs. We sold 20 per month. 1500-1300=200 gross profit. 200*20=$4,000 gross profit per month.

Then I was advised by a mentor to raise my prices. I increased the seminar from one to two days and the price from $1500 to $3900. My costs went up $100 per person to 1400. A LOT less people bought; 10 instead of 20, a full 50% drop off. 3900-1400=1500 gross profit per sale. 1500 * 10 = $15,000 gross profit per month, PLUS we only had to service 10 customers per month instead of 20 PLUS only had to sell 10 instead of 20 PLUS these 10 were the nice 10. They understood things which were valuable cost what they were worth. Our per person support costs dropped by over 80%, as the people who were there just for the price, were no longer our customers.

Ever since then, I've never competed for any business on price. And I don't hesitate to raise prices. Novices don't know enough to genuinely appreciate what they're seeing. Professionals do. I want my prices in any venture to price out novices yet be affordable for working professionals.

That's answer A. Increase prices to where you roughly double your gross profit, which is good for everyone. In this case without access to your internal number, I'd guess that means, increase the price on the RED ONE to $24,995 with smaller increases on the associated other stuff which already most likely has better margins.

That's Story A.

Here is Story B.

b) Are you going to own the market and build a new platform, or do you just want to be a player in the market?

If you're going to own the market, keep at the price you have so long as you're making a profit you can live with, and keep bootstrapping up.

The point is to get a new RED into the hands of every possible person you can, and losing 20% in new customers -- which is likely what you'd lose initially, not to mention the bad will if you raised prices on current customers, even though understandable, even if you gave it to them in discounts on orders on other products -- wouldn't make up for all the RED's NOT out there in people's hands, selling your reputation, blowing people away, day after day.

The value in hands on advertising almost certainly exceeds the value in receivables.

If it comes down to cash flow, consider the additional money you'd need to have BOTH an advertising expense, get it from investment sources and capitalize it. It will take you longer to reach full break-even point, but the key here is to take full ownership of the entire market, so when people think Digital Cinema, they think RED. In my view at this point, you don't want a single sale going elsewhere, and the $17,500 price point is SO enormously affordable in a way that even $24,995 is not, that you should keep it even if it presses WAY into you hard, and take your profits elsewhere.

Your only job right now is to GROW THE MARKET and take profits on everything BUT the camera. Including the pocket camera, a high-speed camera, and other cameras. But the base RED ONE's job is to be a loss-leader if necessary. The profitability of the company can not rest on the camera, at least not right now. It needs to rest on everything else.

The reputation of the company on the other hand, absolutely rests on RED ONE. Which is why it's okay to earmark advertising dollars into development and retooling costs if you need to, in order to keep the price low. That's a much better use of your money than actually running advertising. Then run an add saying, "We just spent x $million adding these functions to RED ONE... still just $17,500. Are you RED?"


Two stories, A & B.

Story A gives you a lot more profits right now, break even sooner, and less problem children to support.

Story B lets you own the entire market and have RED become synonymous with Digital Cinema in the same way Xerox is synonymous with Copy Machine and PDF is synonymous with precise digital image of a page, able to print anywhere.

Xerox and Adobe invented new markets and continue to be world-class companies.

Now that I've written this out, at least for me, I think which Story you should tell is clear.

Best holiday wishes,
 
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