RED FOCUS..

[Scott Crawley]

This does seem to be on the minds of many. Liquid cooling <shudder> How about a big ol' heat sink and that bigger, slower fan previously mentioned?

Your proposal actually echoes many requests so I'd say it would be beneficial for wider use and many camera owners as well.

With unique modularity potential of DSMC concept it seems that split in the product line is not necessary at all, and this part might be covered with a module equipped shell in which brain can slip into.




For cooling route I suggest investigating an option of a dumb side mounted larger fan box with air canals entering Epic's vent ducts.
Another route might be exploring liquid cooling options.




I still don't see the competition for S16 3K 16 bit 3:1 RAW compact camera.

 

[Adam Johnson]

I thought Avid 7 worked with Prores...no?

Talking to fellow AC's and working as one myself at times I keep comin across all of these issues mentioned. But another "issue" is what this camera is all about. Modular. No DSMC RED is really built the same. I think it's great as an owner operator to have so many other options especially affordable ones to build your camera package with. But it always keeps the AC guessing what he has to work with. Where as an Amira for example seems to be a WYSIWIG concept and just easy all around saving lots of time and headaches trying to build a camera...especially when the DP I sits it be taken apart between shooting days or even locations if you get lucky lol. Ugh.

I personally DREAD building my camera package. I like to keep it as a fully functional camera that can be pulled out of its case or bag and start shooting. Doesn't matter if I'm a kid in junior high making a fun little movie, a freshmen in college shooting a news package, a graduate student shooting a student film, or a professional shooting reality tv, doc, news, or FEATURE FILMS. That's the way I am. Period. I like to get built or have a camera in an almost pre-built state like say an Amira would be and be ready at all times. And in my current case start shooting as soon as my RED One wakes up after it's 90 second awakening. Or at least grab the damn BMCC and get the magic before it disappears when the Red is ready.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

Hypothetically could Red open up more accessories production to third parties? Allow third party companies to produce accessories to integrate directly into the DSMC system - even with an approval process so it can't fuck up your camera. I don't mean like a handle, but for a pro sound company to build a pro sound module for Red, same for the proxy module. This way Red can focus on the brain and sensor, if they don't have time to produce the modules people are asking for.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I thought Avid 7 worked with Prores...no?

Yes but Prores is not native to Avid, so the transcode times INTO Avid take much longer than DNX (which is as native codec).

 

[Adam Johnson]

Wait a tick. Avid is still transcoding into itself…or it behind the scenes like Premiere, etc.? Last time I was really using Avid was on 6 and we did mainly transcode into Avid, but AMA was a great option to use as well. I get what your saying though, I wasn't thinking about that :-/

Yes but Prores is not native to Avid, so the transcode times INTO Avid take much longer than DNX (which is as native codec).

 

[Gunleik Groven]

DNx is a cool codec, though... Point to David... (I am sure that was what he meant! )

G

 

[Nick Morrison]

Wait a tick. Avid is still transcoding into itself…or it behind the scenes like Premiere, etc.? Last time I was really using Avid was on 6 and we did mainly transcode into Avid, but AMA was a great option to use as well. I get what your saying though, I wasn't thinking about that :-/

Right.

Because DNX is an avid codec within a quicktime wrapper, Avid still has to remove the wrapper and convert it MXF media...which doesn't take long, but it's still a process...a very fast one. If the quicktime wrapper contains an Apple Pro Res codec, then Avid has to not only rip off the wrapper, but also completely convert the codec into something native...which slows it down tremendously.

As you noted, the fastest way to work in Avid is to AMA the quicktimes first...then "consolidate/transcode" the media in. This is much, much faster than using classic "import" function (a legacy workflow). AMA/Transcoding DNX quicktimes is very, very efficient. Once you throw Prores into the mix, workflows start to bog down.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

To me, this thread is not about:

Things aren't going well for RED, how to fix that.
Also not about:
"How to make a Dragon into an Alexa"

But more:
What could make the RED cameras more used by more people in more situations with relatively small adjustments (compared to developing a camera system from the bottom and up)

And from what I see in this thread so far:

Owner/Ops are pretty happy with things as they are
Big-budget productions, too

SO the extremes in the market are doing just fine.
WHich is good.

Then there is the big bread-and-butter/"daily drama and commercial" market and documentarists/wildlife gang, that see a few challenges, and many of them seems to be common.
How I read the responses so far, noone wants the current body-design to really disappear.

But there are user-cases where the REDs almost fit perfect, but then do not at all.

I think that is interesting to look at.

Not to be "negative", but because that is where the possible extended client-base is.

And we all want more clients, right?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

This does seem to be on the minds of many. Liquid cooling <shudder> How about a big ol' heat sink and that bigger, slower fan previously mentioned?

Liquid cooling as in:

http://koolance.com/cold-plates-assemblies-thermal-design-manufacturing

http://www.lytron.com/Industries/Electronics-Cooling

http://www.thermacore.com/thermal-basics/liquid-cooling.aspx

That probably boils down to cost of implementation.


In case of air cooling perhaps big heat sink is not necessary, just larger air flow achievable with dumb side positoned larger fan.
That option might also be a user replaceable add on.

One thing ink that has not been mentioned is that Prores codec is owned by Apple. R3D is multi platform. So any module would have to also include licensing both Prores and DNXHD. Arri is paying apple to be able to record to that codec and to record DNXHD.

Yup. One of the premises for suggesting H.265 route for future developments.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

Liquid cooling IMHO is just a crazy idea, and not in the crazy but awesome category, more like crazy "put him in a padded room" idea...
It adds so much complexity to a portable system. Can you imagine how cool it would be if there was a leak?
Single engine aircraft started with air cooled engines back in the day and are still produced that way today. Simplicity and efficiency.

Honestly, with the top fan and the old fan on the bottom and the new settings for them, I feel that the cooling/noise problem is done. Never had a single issue with either overheating, nor noise.
I actually had people think that the camera was off, as it wasn't sounding like a vacuum cleaner anymore.

I love the idea of the +1 size modules of all kinds of flavors.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Honestly, with the top fan and the old fan on the bottom and the new settings for them, I feel that the cooling/noise problem is done. Never had a single issue with either overheating, nor noise.
I actually had people think that the camera was off, as it wasn't sounding like a vacuum cleaner anymore.

I love the idea of the +1 size modules of all kinds of flavors.

Agreed. Like I said - with the new fans and correct settings - Dragon runs with less noise than an Alexa and I've proven that - and nobody complains about how noisey the Alexa is.

Just a reality check on "+1 size module" - there is room in a +1 size module for 1 circuit board and a few connectors - so ... many things need more room than that. But yeah - you could totally get a TC lockit into one - but I'm 99% sure you need isolated power to hold the crystal sync - so you would need room to put AAA batteries into it from left side of camera.

 

[David Battistella]

To me, this thread is not about:

Things aren't going well for RED, how to fix that.
Also not about:
"How to make a Dragon into an Alexa"

But more:
What could make the RED cameras more used by more people in more situations with relatively small adjustments (compared to developing a camera system from the bottom and up)

Yes exactly. Also rather than build a whole new camera body, what are they key modules that could go into the modular system.

I think modular was outta sight and it's paying off now with things like movi coming onto the scene.

I'll recap some of the key ideas in this thread a bit later today.

Battistella

 

[Scott Crawley]

True, and the real benefits of starting down this modular path will truly pay off when Red fully matures and the size of the "brain" begins to shrink.

Yes exactly. Also rather than build a whole new camera body, what are they key modules that. Could go into the modular system.

I think modular was outta sight and it's paying off now with things like movi coming onto the scene.

I'll recap some of the key ideas in this thread a bit later today.

Battistella

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

It would also be really cool if RED could make a RED Focus 2.0 that works with the Motion Mount.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I wish that the Motion Mount features were a part of the primary OLPF block and not integral to add-on mounts with additional optics and restricted lens compatibility.

 

[David Battistella]

It would also be really cool if RED could make a RED Focus 2.0 that works with the Motion Mount.

Yup, if we get into taking about 2.0 then a lighter 5"touch without the hinge mechanism and just a top side and back hole to mount it with a noga. I've never mounted mine on top of the camera, logical is operator side or dumb side and it might cut a fair bit of weight out of it. The non touch was great in that way.

I could go on but it might take things off the rails.

What I am reading in this thread so far

-modules that give more I/O including:
-power, video distribution, audio
-big need for TC sync integration lockit style sync
-more mix and match modules rather than one might module
-wireless HD video
-wired and wireless camera control (although the redmote does this)
-proxy module that is a RED solution
-audio module with pro connectors (XLR or mini XLR), pots and line mic switches.
-love the ideo of incorporating a remote screen into a module.


To me it seems an AUDIO/SYNC MODULE sounds ideal. What it would add to your camera.
-tri level sync
-lemo TC I/O
-2xlr, or 4x mini XLR
-redmote monitor style control panel with level meter indicators
-push in mini pots for adjusting levels (although if you could do that on the touchscreen that would be cool)

or

A slimline version of above without the redmote panel and the connectors running dumb side from top to bottom



What about media?

I'm not too keen on the larger sizes and very happy with the SSD, I think it would be good for about three more years, I like to roll over cards and spread the media around rather than trust it all on one mag. Any thoughts on this?


Battistella

 

[David Battistella]

I wish that the Motion Mount features were a part of the primary OLPF block and not integral to add-on mounts with additional optics and restricted lens compatibility.

I think about that too. I'm just wondering if some of what the motion mount does can not be solved with the read reset of the sensor. (I know the motion mount does much more) but a faster read reset would aid in any skew/etc.

anyone know now the read reset of dragon.

@Mark,

i remember one of your first epic tests where the read reset was set higher and when you crossed a bridge in a car, the motion skew was tight, then it was subsequently set back for production release. What are you noticing on Dragon without motion mount?

Battistella

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Liquid cooling IMHO is just a crazy idea, and not in the crazy but awesome category, more like crazy "put him in a padded room" idea...
It adds so much complexity to a portable system. Can you imagine how cool it would be if there was a leak?
Single engine aircraft started with air cooled engines back in the day and are still produced that way today. Simplicity and efficiency.

Did you check this link ?

http://www.lytron.com/Industries/Electronics-Cooling

Usually products designed for defense, aerospace and medical purposes have higher levels of QC.
Single engine aircraft has volume for huge amounts of air flow, tiny supercomputer with densely arranged electronics doesn't.



Btw, regarding EVF...

Updated monitors with 1080p OLED panels combined with independent camera control would make the EVF redundant in many cases.
Monitor loupe and one solution serves as both.

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

* I would like to see better sharpening tools. Would like to see settings for high, mid and low lumarange. I don't mind in camera sharpening if it would be just meta data so it would be applied in post and easy customized when needed. I think the sharpening is a bit of a hassle when working without a redrocket since you want to work on all original pixels. As high resolution is what red is famous for I think you should get a "crisp" image out of the box.

* More focus on adding compatible lenses for the canon and nikon mount. We should have sigma and tamaron lenses with working "is" by now, just as you would on any canon camera.

*Would like a red media management application. Here I like to se an option to delete clips that I know I will never use without messing up any rmd file.

*Ability to add a button to mark "good takes" in meta data. This I used alot back in the hvx200 days. saves time in edit.

* Thumbnails for the clips.


*Have use for the built in 3 axis motion sensor. It have been quiet for to long. Im still hoping we could use this to improve the tracking/stabilization data in post.

* Perhaps more options of olpf. One weaker would be interesting as I think shooting with non would be to "scary".

*Built in ND, Its been listed in earlier post but that would be so great!!

Sorry if the above is more features I want and not two things Red should be focusing on but overall Im very pleased!

 

[Adrian Jebef]

IMO the biggest weakness of RED cameras from the very beginning has always been the fact that the footage must be debayered and transformed into a proper gamma/color space before it can actually be used.

I realize I'm in the minority here as most seem to see this as RED's greatest strength but for any professional production that employs 100+ people it's all about the workflow pipeline. I equally realize you can custom tailer your hardware/software to make R3D workflows as smooth as butter but this requires proprietary tech in a closed system for the most part. I've never found the RedRocket to be much of a Post solution for this as I've had one too many issues. CPU debayering is solid but agonizingly slow. RED's opening up of RCX for GPU acceleration is SO F-ING APPRECIATED!!!

but... Allowing the camera to natively record a "baked" video clip instead of just "raw" files makes so much sense on so many levels.

Has anyone ever sent out a clean RedLogFilm signal from their EPIC and recorded it on a Pix 240 or similar? Maybe brought it into Resolve and did some color tweaks? Exported it and thrown it up on a TV for broadcast? Yeah, it actually looks pretty amazing. You could even have a hard time telling the difference between the 1080 log master vs a 5K R3D master from the same source. Actually you probably can't tell at all. I would love to see RED offer some more back-end options instead of just adding to all of their front-end ones.

And, oh yeah, getting proper CDL and 3D LUT support would be really swell, too. Thanks.