RED DSMC Motion Mount has arrived!

[Uros Zuraj]

no problems so far. but its good to do a checkup every now and then anyway i assume.

 

[Tommaso Alvisi]

the major bummer is the max 4 stops of ND to have a clean bokeh...what's your experience guys?

 

[Phil Holland]

I'm close to pull the trigger on a Motion Mount, but i just wanted to ask you guys what you think about it now, after some time has passed.

Does it stay always on camera? Do you really use the different shutter-modes all the time or is it "just" a electronic ND? Are there any major drawbacks to keep in mind? The light loss is obvious, but how much does that concern you? (I don't have a Dragon yet.)

Just want to know if my expectations are too high.

I'll chime in as I can't sleep for some horrific reason.

I'm still enjoying the Motion Mount and it is indeed useful. A couple of people who shoot a lot of outdoors and racing related material seem to be getting a lot of use out of the tech. I think some of the copter folks too.

It's not really just an electronic ND for me. Some want Square Shutter all the time. I myself am finding some fun with the Soft Shutter. That truly paints a unique image.

If I was shooting in lower light conditions, well yes, of course I'd attach the regular PL or EF Mount on there. That's an extra 1.6 stops of light gathering and that might be important under those conditions.

Really in terms of practical shooting use it really depends on your application. I shoot under a variety of conditions and having it in my kit has been far more useful than not.

 

[Maik Müller]

Thank you Phil and Uros. No more doubts here, i'm sure this thing is made "for me". I'm glad to hear the shutter-modes really make a difference and can be counted as creative tool. not just a technical gimmick.

So, i will order the Canon-version soon.

I'm just a bit worried about swapping mountshttp://www.reduser.net/forum/member.php?159956-Uros-Zuraj on demand. Never did it so far, can't imagine doing that on set or something. But the 1.6 stop loss sound too much to be ignored, so yes, i think i'll have to swap sometimes.

 

[Phil Holland]

Thank you Phil and Uros. No more doubts here, i'm sure this thing is made "for me". I'm glad to hear the shutter-modes really make a difference and can be counted as creative tool. not just a technical gimmick.

So, i will order the Canon-version soon.

I'm just a bit worried about swapping mountshttp://www.reduser.net/forum/member.php?159956-Uros-Zuraj on demand. Never did it so far, can't imagine doing that on set or something. But the 1.6 stop loss sound too much to be ignored, so yes, i think i'll have to swap sometimes.

Cheers Maik. Don't be scared to swap mounts. I do it all the time. It's 4 bolts and once you have it down it can be done in less than a minute. It's really no big deal.

Just remember to power down the camera when changing mounts. Don't do it while it's on.

 

[Uros Zuraj]

I swap between mounts all the time, as drone guys want PL MM and I mostly shoot Canon and I was scared at first but now it can be done in lees then a minute like Phil said.
the MM has its drawbacks but its a tool and any tool is only made to do one thing really good so yeah 1.6 is not ideal but you learn when to swap and when not...

 

[Ivan McCullough]

Is it true bokeh at a T-stop below T4 looks odd, or is it T2.8 or basically whats the consensus on this now?

When bokeh is weird, how is it weird, is weird variable weird?

 

[Tim Bradley]

the MM has its drawbacks but its a tool and any tool is only made to do one thing really good so yeah 1.6 is not ideal but you learn when to swap and when not...

What are the Motion Mount drawbacks besides the light loss?

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Thank you Phil and Uros. No more doubts here, i'm sure this thing is made "for me". I'm glad to hear the shutter-modes really make a difference and can be counted as creative tool. not just a technical gimmick.

So, i will order the Canon-version soon.

I'm just a bit worried about swapping mountshttp://www.reduser.net/forum/member.php?159956-Uros-Zuraj on demand. Never did it so far, can't imagine doing that on set or something. But the 1.6 stop loss sound too much to be ignored, so yes, i think i'll have to swap sometimes.

Maik, as the others mentioned, swapping mounts is really fast and totally safe as long as you power down. Just make sure there's not too much dust around. Switching on set is no problem. It's not a lot slower than switching lenses.

Maybe you should take a little trip to Berlin to RED and check it out. Just make sure they have one to demonstrate before you head up there. This way you can really see for yourself.

 

[Maik Müller]

Maik, as the others mentioned, swapping mounts is really fast and totally safe as long as you power down. Just make sure there's not too much dust around. Switching on set is no problem. It's not a lot slower than switching lenses.

Ok, sounds good, i 'm a bit over-cautious sometimes.

Maybe you should take a little trip to Berlin to RED and check it out. Just make sure they have one to demonstrate before you head up there. This way you can really see for yourself.

Hmmm, you are right, a little trip to Berlin to grab my next order instead of having it shipped to me sounds like a nice idea.

 

[Daniel Kelly Brown]

Is it true bokeh at a T-stop below T4 looks odd, or is it T2.8 or basically whats the consensus on this now?

When bokeh is weird, how is it weird, is weird variable weird?

If you want check out this video I shot with the MM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcxptFBNLEk 1:25-1:45 I forgot my additional ND filter eight flights of stairs down and decided to shoot wide open while maxing out the MM. Below is a screen from that segment that I think does a good job of demonstrating this strange horizontal booka effect.

http://www.senseistudios.com/send/mmtest.png

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I've been playing with one of these today. It's quite amazing. The amount of time, weight, and hassle it can save is fantastic. What I like is that I can just set my aperture based on the DOF I want to achieve and boom, dial it up in fractional increments to create a perfect fat negative, without any guessing or adjusting aperture - really revolutionary to have this degree of control. I love the idea of fewer aperture adjustments and more consistency across footage.

I also shot some timelapse with it, to see if I could see what the assymetrical bokeh warning is all about. I shot fairly quick n dirty clouds from my porch and shot the same scene at 4.0 (that was my control image), 5.0, 6.0, 7.0, and 8.0. I was shooting everything at F8 though, not wide open, and all of the images look pretty good. I even pixel-peeped them in photoshop and could not really see anything assymetrical about the bokeh - no visible artifacts. Since I didn't change the aperture because I was trying to maintain the control standard, it did get noisier, but the noise looked normal.

I was happy not to see anything, but this was a stationary camera at F8, not a moving camera wide open with a complicated focus pull. So I was happy with my shots but a little confused not to be able to create assymetrical bokeh. I would like to know it when I see.

Daniel, I'm quite sure what I'm seeing in your still - is it the banding to the right of the man's head - or the odd quality of the blur on the orange rig to the left of his head? I'm still a little unclear how to identify assymetrical bokeh.

I do have one question about Phil's IR tests. I don't think just adding heavy filtration creates IR conditions - that magenta isn't itself IR pollution, it's just a function of filtering heavily and is easily removed by tweaking the image in a coloring program. IR conditions are environmental. You have to go to where they exist to test properly, is that not the case? I've only experienced 2 instances of IR pollution in my footage. One was shooting at a snowmaking machine in Snowmass on a sunny morning, and the other was shooting on water at altitude on a highly reflective day. It's not just a bit of purple in the tones - real IR pollution makes a complete wreck of your footage - kinda looks like bad chromatic aberration with a really muddy image. In both instances, I was shooting with ND but without a hot mirror at the equivalent of thousands of tiny reflective mirrors.


Maybe there is a way to create this effect in the lab, but I'm not sure how to do it - just speaking from my experience. I had to shoot under some very demanding lighting conditions to experience IR pollution in my footage. In Colorado, we shoot under a pretty brilliant and reflective sun often and still you can get away, most times, without filtering for IR. Not that you should do so - I'm just pointing out that instances of IR pollution are fairly rare, and filtering for it is an intelligent precaution, but I think there has been a touch of paranoia about it.

Having said that, I think the only way to test for IR pollution, is to find its pre-existing environmental condition, shoot that, and then shoot it with the Motion Mount.

I could be dead wrong about this. But I think the IR test via heavy filtration doesn't account for "real-world" IR pollution conditions which are typically found under more extreme lighting environments (again, in my experience)....

Thanks for all the feedback on this. It definitely feels like this mount has the capacity to revolutionize things (again), but this first incarnation will probably have limits. I think it is an amazing bit of kit, with so very many applications - gimbals, helis, car mounts, wildlife, landscape - the list of shooting options it will impact runs deep.

 

[Patric Ralston]

In my experience you can't necessarily swap the MM out for a PL mount without adjusting the back focus.
(Unless you have been incredibly lucky with your particular mount). I have had 2 x motion mounts. 1 was out by 90microns when swapped with a correctly set Ti PL mount. It was also tested against a PL Magnesium mount and it was again 90microns out. The PL Magnesium mount and the Ti PL mount swapped out with each other with no collimation issues. My replacement MM was 40microns out and another I tested was 20microns out.
I have been on set with a MM on a CF Dragon in the morning and the DP has asked for a mount change to take advantage of the extra 1.6 stops. If I hadn't had my DENZ FDC to recollimate the back focus of the camera we would have been in big trouble.

My advice. Check your mounts against each other and plan accordingly.

 

[Luke Neumann]

Curious as to how much it cuts down on the rolling shutter effect. I have always enjoyed shooting with faster shutter speeds for creative reasons at times and would love to see how much it helps in that situation.

 

[Daniel Reed]

Has anyone had a chance to use the motion mount w/ the Dragon Sensor? I'm curious if it's a viable option, or more trouble then its worth.
I'm also curious about the rolling shutter on the dragon sensor cameras - is it the same as the MX?

I'm considering a motion mount for use with a Scarlet Dragon. Thanks

 

[Nick Morrison]

Has anyone had a chance to use the motion mount w/ the Dragon Sensor? I'm curious if it's a viable option, or more trouble then its worth.
I'm also curious about the rolling shutter on the dragon sensor cameras - is it the same as the MX?

I'm considering a motion mount for use with a Scarlet Dragon. Thanks

From what I understand, rolling shutter should be cut down in 1/2 over MX, as Dragon refresh rate is twice as fast...

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

From what I understand, rolling shutter is I believe cut down in 1/2 over MX, as Dragon refresh rate is twice as fast...

Phil did a great test and presentation with the motion mount and MX. Would be interesting to see an example of what the Dragon improvement is like to gauge when a MM is needed.

 

[Daniel Reed]

Great, thanks Nick!
Has it been confirmed, or any folks know if the sensor refresh rates are the same between Epic & Scarlet w/ Dragon?

 

[PatrickFaith]

[edit ... btw this is a great thread, for sure sticky worthy]

Does anyone know if the PL motion mount will work with the 35 and 50 mm master prime anamorphic lens?
I also have a red prime 18mm, and the MP anamorphic goes a bit deeper then the rpp 18mm ... and on the red.com website it says:

NOTE: This product is not compatible with the RED FOCUS or RED PRO PRIME 18MM.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

[Edit: Thanks, Phil, for all your trouble. BTW you look a bit like Russell Crowe.]

Idle thought... which is the better immediate upgrade; move from Scarlet to Epic ($9500) or purchase Motion Mount ($3900)?? Any opinions?

My opinion: go with the Epic unless money is an object. So I agree with everyone else who answered you. The reason is this: in the real world, the MM is a 'practical luxury', but not exactly something that will make-or-break a shoot, AFAIK. The MM will reduce your sensitivity by 1.6 stops, right? Well, by not having it, your Epic will have a higher effective ISO than your Scarlet. And it can shoot slow motion. And it can shoot 5K. And it can shoot 5K and slow motion together. I'd say that your practical flexibility will be better with an Epic versus a Scarlet with MM.

The Motion Mount DOES affect the back focus collimation. If switching between mounts, Put a confirmed lens on the camera, set it to an exact focus mark, (say 5') and zoom in on the full 5K and adjust your sensor back focus. If not, you could see issues on wide angel lenses where back focus is most critical.

Maybe the take-away lesson is to make up your mind which mount you want and stick with it. Don't piss around with too many choices on set.

You get up to 4 stops of ND in the shuttering modes. Mode and ND values cannot be changed during recording.

That's interesting. You'd think that changing ND values would be useful for ramping frame rates up and down, for the few times when you would want to do that. I've seen this technique used only once, and that was in Scorsese's Age of Innocence. Still, they did it without the MM.