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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Dragon

We are so spolied these days. Golden days of filmmaking are ahead...

You know what's funny? I trained on film at film school, and i remember how great it was shooting on the Kodak 500T ( and d) when it came out. With a good lens, it was amazing what this film stock could pick up in dim situations, albeit grainy. It was 500 ISO... and now we are whining that a clean 800iso on a camera that can, for all intents and purposes, pretty much match film is not enough :)
 
The only pixel upgrade worth doing is 5760x3240 . . . which makes a scalable 3xHD (thereby moving from "quad HD" (2x2) to whatever "nine fold" (3x3) is called). More pixels would be somewhat important for the DMSC motion/print concept - but improvement of S/N performance in low light is the key metric I'm looking for. A couple stops in sensitivity makes a huge difference on so many levels of production cost, logistics and flexibility. A 2 stop improvement allows using a pop-out reflector vs an electric light . . . or a F2.8 vs F1.4 lens . . . or shooting at 1/200 vs 1/48th. . . which is the key to pulling sharp print stills out of the film footage.

Signal to Noise at low light levels is the final frontier and what I'm hoping for in Dragon
 
Ivan Kovax said:
You know what's funny? I trained on film at film school, and i remember how great it was shooting on the Kodak 500T ( and d) when it came out. With a good lens, it was amazing what this film stock could pick up in dim situations, albeit grainy. It was 500 ISO... and now we are whining that a clean 800iso on a camera that can, for all intents and purposes, pretty much match film is not enough :)
Click to expand...

Well, that's why my #1 priority is skin tones.

You can usually tell digital from film these days because digital skin tones have a certain look. RED footage is probably one of the worst offenders - the skin tones out of the cam look just nowhere near as good as film to my (subjective) eyes.

Though this goes for pretty much ever other digital cam I've seen / used - Alexa a little less so, but still true. Even F65 is worrying - skin tones have been described to me by multiple people who know what they're doing as "looking bad, kinda like RED" (their words not mine). Ouch.

Sure, in the hands of a brilliant colorist, you can make the skin tones look good. I stopped by Light Iron on Sun and saw a shot from Tom's TimeScapes that Ian Vertovec had colored that made me say "Good heavens! The skintones actually look natural!" It was a revelation.

But I'd love it if we had an option to start off closer to a filmic color response. RedFilmicSkinTonesColor5, if you please.

I really do think it comes down to the color filters in front of the sensors though - I think that they are not letting through the wavelengths they should, and that they are letting through wavelengths they shouldn't. You can compensate for that in color developing settings... but not always 100% in varying lighting conditions.

So my #1 vote for Dragon is better colorimetry at the sensor level.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
1. Better color science
2. Better skintone
3. Less noise
4. Scaled 3K and 2k
5. More dynamic range
6. Scaled 1080 Prores 4444 recording
7. Much better stability on firmware
8. Smarter and faster black shading system
9. Above all, consistancy on overall performance
 
I don't think it is time for the Red dragon, yet. I expect Redray and projector announcement at NAB, not the next generation sensor.

IMO Red will continue to sell existing sensor for many months, they have only recently begun to clear through all the stages. The Dragon sensor is likely still in R&D phase, far from volume manufacturing.

Whenever it is released, however, I am sure it will be inspiring.
 
Bruce Allen said:
Well, that's why my #1 priority is skin tones.

You can usually tell digital from film these days because digital skin tones have a certain look. RED footage is probably one of the worst offenders - the skin tones out of the cam look just nowhere near as good as film to my (subjective) eyes.

Though this goes for pretty much ever other digital cam I've seen / used - Alexa a little less so, but still true. Even F65 is worrying - skin tones have been described to me by multiple people who know what they're doing as "looking bad, kinda like RED" (their words not mine). Ouch.

Sure, in the hands of a brilliant colorist, you can make the skin tones look good. I stopped by Light Iron on Sun and saw a shot from Tom's TimeScapes that Ian Vertovec had colored that made me say "Good heavens! The skintones actually look natural!" It was a revelation.

But I'd love it if we had an option to start off closer to a filmic color response. RedFilmicSkinTonesColor5, if you please.

I really do think it comes down to the color filters in front of the sensors though - I think that they are not letting through the wavelengths they should, and that they are letting through wavelengths they shouldn't. You can compensate for that in color developing settings... but not always 100% in varying lighting conditions.
Click to expand...

Hey Bruce,

Interesting. Well the thing is, as you pointed out, with Red you can make skin tones look natural... as long as it is shot the right way and processed the right way too. How did Ian treat his footage out of interest?

I would agree with you that the skin tones out of the camera are not really right much of the time (it is the green that sometimes surprises me), but to be honest with you I can not recall a situation I have shot in where i have not been able to adjust them to rather quite natural in redcine. Ungraded film also always looked like mud to me.. It is what I could do to it afterwards which I always loved. Have these DPs you spoke to been judging in on the raw image out of camera, or on something other?

I think it is the sensor to a degree. Red seems more finicky with ND and IR, for example, which affects the colours cast on the image. I think all the colors are usually there, but it is just a matter of doing getting it right in camera to not mess up the green/magenta side of things and from there on a nice one light does wonders. Though I do agree that a good RedFilmicSkinTonesColor5 for most productions would be great in camera to not have to do as much work later on (and to not have to explain to the producer what raw is...), but I will do with what I have for the time being which is not bad :)

Having better skintones right out of the camera would be nice, but I would end up messing with the footage afterwards in any cause... cause I can... heh

Ivan
 
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Right, but without knowing the price of the 4k recorder, the 8 grand price tag tells us nothing. Watch the recorder cost more then the damned camera lol

RayFrisby said:
Just read that the Sony 4K NEX FS 7000 is rumored to be 8,000 USD (Released in June !) this will make for an interesting NAB 2012

http://www.eoshd.com/content/7710/the-sony-nex-fs700-4k-for-8k

Model: NEX FS700E
List price: $8000 / €8000 (provisional)
Release date: June 2012
Specs: 4K, 3G HD SDI, Super35mm Exmor HD CMOS
Click to expand...
 
It's clear that 2012 is the year of 4K change. So many players jumping into the nexgen game now. No doubt RED will announce something HUGE at NAB!!

A Dragon would slay
 
Yea I am just basically waiting to hear what the recorder costs... I am seriously considering getting one, but not until I know the total costs involved with a 4k workflow with it.

RayFrisby said:
Hi Brian !
I think the recorder will be expensive but I don't see them going crazy, all reports point to Sony wanting to compete in the 4K market.
I may be wrong here but I see a complete package being 8-12K.
Reports are saying they may offer the camera with a basic lens (18-200mm) for 10K

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-57407947-264/nex-fs700-pushes-down-sonys-4k-videocamera-prices/
Click to expand...
 
This thread reminds where we are and what we are capable of today. When I think of how fast the industry has changed since I began working in 2008, it really blows my mind. The breakneck speed really has really left a lot of people bewildered and unable to adapt, which is easy to forget on the forums. As a producer in LA, I'm watching established production companies cut staff dramatically and fail to adapt.

In my opinion, RED has continually delivered on the impossible while simultaneously making it affordable. When I look at what I have spent thus far, and what I have been able to create, I'm a happy camper. With that in mind, I hope anything unveiled at NAB retains the vision of improvements while lowering costs. In regards to a Dragon sensor, I absolutely agree with so much many of you have said, and I will throw my hat in the low light capability ring in particular.

Gavin Greenwalt said:
Knowing how to light... and lighting 400 feet of street are two very different tasks.
Click to expand...

Well said.

Ivan Kovax said:
Hey Bruce,


Interesting. Well the thing is, as you pointed out, with Red you can make skin tones look natural... as long as it is shot the right way and processed the right way too. How did Ian treat his footage out of interest?


I would agree with you that the skin tones out of the camera are not really right much of the time (it is the green that sometimes surprises me), but to be honest with you I can not recall a situation I have shot in where i have not been able to adjust them to rather quite natural in redcine. Ungraded film also always looked like mud to me.. It is what I could do to it afterwards which I always loved. Have these DPs you spoke to been judging in on the raw image out of camera, or on something other?


I think it is the sensor to a degree. Red seems more finicky with ND and IR, for example, which affects the colours cast on the image. I think all the colors are usually there, but it is just a matter of doing getting it right in camera to not mess up the green/magenta side of things and from there on a nice one light does wonders. Though I do agree that a good RedFilmicSkinTonesColor5 for most productions would be great in camera to not have to do as much work later on (and to not have to explain to the producer what raw is...), but I will do with what I have for the time being which is not bad :)


Having better skintones right out of the camera would be nice, but I would end up messing with the footage afterwards in any cause... cause I can... heh


Ivan
Click to expand...

I'm also very curious here regarding method. I agree with both of you, and Ivan in particular regarding being able to achieve a natural skin tone in RedCine. Spending less time doing so would be nice, as it requires an eye and patience, and in the hands of the lazy turns out mediocre.

So much of my time is consumed teaching and overseeing to ensure quality for a project. Before I hire or work with someone it has become paramount that I see what an individual is actually capable of vs. what they say, which is easier said than done.
 
Full frame will be huge for me, in fact industry game changing. As my DeepX and 3Deep underwater housings use Nikonos lenses to resolve full sensor corner-to-corner without plane curvature caused by underwater dome ports, the traditional approach of competitive solutions will only suffer further degradations. With traditional dome port: the larger the sensor the more resolution loss due to image plane curvature. But, using submersible full frame Nikonos lenses: the larger the sensor the sharper it gets.

Bring it on! I'm so excited about the fact that for the first time in history we can achieve undistorted and sharp underwater images (by an order of a magnitude) and with FF35 sensor, the result gets better and better.
 
Mark Pugh said:
Has anyone from Red ever hinted that Dragon will be full frame? Just wondering.
Click to expand...

No. But they have stated that it's the first of the "Monstro" chips. The smallest of which was originally to be a 6k FF sensor. So it might be a case like the REDOne where they install a FF sensor but only enable a crop of it for existing cameras and then down the road release a new body designed around the full capabilities.

Long ago the promise of Monstro was 2+ Stops of extra dynamic range. But that was supposed to be a couple years ago so lord knows what they've been up to in the interim. Hopefully not just achieving what they hoped to accomplish 2 years ago... but skipping ahead yet another generation.

I think the safe bets are: +2.5 stops of dynamic range, 1600 ISO, Framerate bump at least for Scarlet in 4k (and effectively a framerate bump in 5k since HDRx will be less important with 16 stops). Size is a crap shoot. I would love a Full Frame sensor though... it's what I really wanted to buy but gave up waiting for.
 
Who doesn't love a "RED DRAGON!"

It's the year of the Golden Dragon, 2012, I doubt RED would let an opportunity like this slip by and release the dragon sensor in the year of the snake. Dragon > Snake
 
ok putting on my conspiracy hat....



I think its going to be a combination of hardware upgrades. a Sensor and a Board (for the scarlet).

For Epic, it will be most likely a 8k APS-H sized chip ( even bigger than the current one that half/full frame one) but with better S/N, skintones, etc.... that we know...

BUT! i think the big change is gona be for scarlet.... i think its gonna be like a $5k upgrade for epic, but a $8k upgrade for Scarlet..... because, they will change out the boards, but we will probably get 8k @ 6FPS, but i BET the scarlets will get 5k @24p, 48P in 4k, 60P in 3k, and 120 in 2k.

So it sort of makes four distinct classes of camera, entry level scarlets, mid level Dragon Scarlets , Standard epics, and BEAST 8k Epics.

It makes sense. Some people dont need 5k @ 24p, but i do for example. For feature work its better. It gives the customer more options. They can pimp their scarlet up, but still save money over an epic, so you get normal frame rates in higher res but no real high speed. The regular epic is amazing for high speed, but it you need ultra resolution, its there in the Dragon epic....

I mean, its not unthinkable to have 15+stop D/R, 8k sensor in a S35/APSH sized chip, the F65 is doing it just fine.

Man i cant wait to get to that party!
 
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