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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Red Dragon

Something that just occurred to me over dinner, although I don't know exactly where it fits in with the grand scheme of raw capture, is the potential to have on chip noise reduction. Several other companies utilize this tech in raw stills. I wonder if there could be advancements and implementation on this front.

If that's the case we might be seeing much more cleanly into the darkness than we even expected.

I'm sticking by FF35-ish 6.6k-9k with more DR and increases in capture fps options. The hardware in Epic alone could capture 8-9k-ish at speed, which is amazing. Which gives me the feeling that the hardware upgrade to Scarlet will help open up that bandwidth and processing power a bit.
 
Phil Holland said:
Something that just occurred to me over dinner, although I don't know exactly where it fits in with the grand scheme of raw capture, is the potential to have on chip noise reduction. Several other companies utilize this tech in raw stills. I wonder if there could be advancements and implementation on this front.

If that's the case we might be seeing much more cleanly into the darkness than we even expected.

I'm sticking by FF35-ish 6.6k-9k with more DR and increases in capture fps options. The hardware in Epic alone could capture 8-9k-ish at speed, which is amazing. Which gives me the feeling that the hardware upgrade to Scarlet will help open up that bandwidth and processing power a bit.
Click to expand...

I think this makes sense, Phil. Some sort of hardware specific internal noise reduction would absolutely make sense- something that could be selected by the user on camera.
 
I Have to say Bravo to Jarred/Jim/+Ted For not letting A WORD out about DRAGON for a Year+ :thumbsup:
 
I'm trying to be realistic about Dragon, so my guess is it's going to offer a stop or two more non-HDRX latitude and have visibly better low-light performance than MX. I'd pay $5K for that.
 
Will Keir said:
Who doesn't love a "RED DRAGON!"

It's the year of the Golden Dragon, 2012, I doubt RED would let an opportunity like this slip by and release the dragon sensor in the year of the snake. Dragon > Snake
Click to expand...
Well, the FAQ says Dragon will be available in second half of 2012, so yeah.
 
RayFrisby said:
Ok this is just my opinion

But for what it's worth I see two possible Red (Camera) scenarios at NAB this year.
1 Red offers their first 10K Scarlet package.
2 Red up's the Specs on the Scarlet / Epic (Dragon Sensor) and maintains the price point.

Either of these announcement may not be popular with current Scarlet / Epic owners
but like Jim says everything is subject to change.

Sony and Canon finally realise they have to compete in the Scarlet market, and (IMO) price
is where the new battle lines will be drawn.
10K has always been the magic price point for the low budget
/ indi-shooter, and it seems Canon and Sony are upping their game to compete
in this market.
Sure you have higher margins in the top end stuff, and their will always be a
market for the Epic, Alexa etc... but the higher volume sales will always be in the lower
priced cameras.

Offering a ready to shoot 4K package for 10K is clever and shows Sony
is looking at this market and future viability. Panasonic have already announced
huge losses this year, approx 10 billion.
Personally I think the big companies are scared and looking at recapturing market share
to survive in a difficult economic climate.

Sony look like offering the NEX-FS700 with a 18-200mm lens for 10K.
I don't know much about the camera but I think it has everything you need to start
shooting right out of the box, except a recorder. Unless they shoot themselves in the foot
(not ruling this out however) they wont offer this for more than 2,500-3,500. If they do then
it's advantage Red and possibly Canon.
One thing is sure the 4K market is finally getting interesting, and it's all because of Red.

Whatever the outcome I think NAB 2012 will finally be the year we see a 4K (interchangeable camera) for 10K
Click to expand...

That alone has made me rethink my purchase today!
 
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Blah blah blah Sony blah blah blah

Canon and Sony are whole different camera experiences than RED. Like comparing a Leica to a Sony. Both take great photos but what do you want in your hand when the shot really counts and what suits your style, approach and personality? A hacked GH2 beats anything you'll see at NAB for image quality vs cost . . . who f-ing cares!?!?

Buy what personally suits you today and start shooting something the world gives a shit about.
 
Backside-illuminated sensor/Higher ISO performance
Global shutter CMOS
High FPS burst mode - 500 FPS at 4k for 10 seconds, 1000fps at 2k
And pretty much all the good things that have been mentioned before.
 
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Surely if Dragon is a sensor upgrade for EpicX it will be limited by the electronics in the current Epic so a massively different chip size and spec is unlikely and unusefull.

I would be really f*****g delighted by:

The same photo receptor size as now but with perhaps a higher fill factor
1.5 stop more Dynamic range and a slightly cleaner image at 800-3200asa
a very slightly faster read reset time option.
a taller chip (another 3 to 4mm) so we can use anamorphic glass to its full potential
AND a clever way of switching the camera to 50asa very fast with no optical compromise...

This list seems nearly reasonable and would be fantastic...
 
For those who are begging for a FF 35mm sensor: have you checked what is available in FF Cine glass?
 
Michael Lindsay said:
Surely if Dragon is a sensor upgrade for EpicX it will be limited by the electronics in the current Epic so a massively different chip size and spec is unlikely and unusefull.
Click to expand...

FF35 wouldn't be an 8k chip, unless pixel density increases.
There'd be a reasonable frame rate possible at full frame ( maybe 48fps) if pixel size increased a bit for a FF35 sensor
 
Was there ever any word on R1 Paths? I'm sure there was something said about it, but I can't find anything.
 
4K and it's Future.

It seems to me RED was able to push the industry by offering Resolution that was unheard of for it's time. That moment has caught up...Whats Next? DRAGON!! I guarantee 4K is gonna be the new "BUZZ" word for NAB 2012 so where does it put the Dragon?

From what I've seen in the camera industry, most haven't gotten to 4K cause they want to do it right. I got a Scarlet about two months ago and I've logged 97 Hrs. In those 97hrs I've begun to realize the noise that can be produced from this sensor. Hell theirs reading on the screen to tell you your noise pollution.

RED-VOGUE .jpg

Eye Noise.jpg Screen shot 2012-04-05 at 2.16.56 PM.jpg Light Noise.jpg Screen shot 2012-04-05 at 2.10.16 PM.jpg

Full-Res Image here see for yourself.

I began to realize that Oversampling and Interpolation produce the best image with better Skin Tones, Less Noise, and Superior Color Reproduction. Bayer sensor was cool several years ago but now it's all about higher resolutions to create a perfect compression at a lower resolution (Or Close to perfect).

Frame Rates are cool, Resolution is cool but please I want the best codec compression on the market. Red can play the resolution race but is it really that much better for a final image. As a DP, full freedom of exposure is what we seek after and the main reason why I feel why the Alexa has been so successful, it's truly the ultimate 1080p camera. Which was fine for it's lifespan, now everyone is turning their heads to 4K.

For some reason I feel like Red is gonna go the resolution route on a Bayer sensor which kinda breaks my heart if it's the truth.

My best guess as to what we should expect...

FF35 Sensor
6K resolution
Epic 6K (60fps)
Scarlet 6K (30fps)

Cost

From previous posts it was mentioned that the Scarlet upgrade is gonna cost more than Epic due to swap'n out the motherboard. This also has me worried...How much?

If Scarlet is for the cost effective crowd how is dumping another $8k into a two month old camera make it affordable?

I really don't want to spend over $6k for an upgrade unless it's truly what Jim makes it up to be.

Give us Oversampling and Interpolation options for superior Grading, if we need frame rates or Resolution could we turn it off to have it all?

I have no clue on how to make a camera but that would be worth the money.
 
I have very little interest in FF35 for cinema. None of the best cinema lenses will be usable (gods forbid that I'll have to upgrade my cinema lenses as frequently as my camera systems/sensors!). And for the VAST majority of narative work I do, t4 gives me a really nice, not-in-your-face focus falloff.

What would get me really excited about a new sensor is Dynamic Range! And right after that, sensor sensitivity. ISO of 3200 clean would really open up the world of night. Then fram-rates ( I love 300fps). And a long way after those gold-star improvements woudl come more resolution. I cant see more than 6K aquisition being beneficial for a max 4k world. I'm perfectly happy with 5K. But more DR! More ISO!! Now that would be worth a lot.

Also, I don't expect Red to announce any thing concrete about Dragon at NAB. That will be for 2013.
my two-cents
 
yea that's what really scares me, imagine what a 28k sensor will look like through any of our current glass? we'll need all new glass i think once the sensors are even bigger, i am guessing?
 
Not necessarily. A lens made for 16mm film must resolve more detail than a similar lens made for 35 because the recorded image is much smaller while the end projection size is the same. More detail crammed into more space. Same is true for photography: a medium format lens doesn't need to be as "sharp" as a 35mm photographic lens in order to get even greater apparent sharpness out of the prints, because the medium is larger.

I may not be expressing this very well. Hopefully the sensor upgrade is a sensible increase in range (highlights, shadows, usable ISO) and color reproduction, less a crazy PLEASE SHOOT STILLS WITH OUR CAMERA monstrosity.
 
In reality, anyone know what the sharpest lenses can even resolve @ S35 size sensor? 6k? 8K? I feel like 4k is out resolving my still glass. My PL primes are plenty sharp and probably have couple more K's before the sensor over powers them....

For example, what do MP's, Leica Summilux C's, i5's etc really resolve in the s35 frame?
 
Paul Nordin said:
I have very little interest in FF35 for cinema. None of the best cinema lenses will be usable
Click to expand...

Red knows that and for that reason I doubt they'd ever give us a 5K FF35 sensor (aka 'same number of larger pixels')

"Larger number of same-size pixels" FF35 is probably much more likely. I'm not sure what that'd work out to (~6K?), but the point is that such a sensor would have a "windowed" 5K mode the same size as the current sensor.

I'd guess that windowed 5K would be the cinema mode and FF35 mode would be primarily for stills, just like max resolution mode on the current Scarlet.

Another thought : if they tried to do a FF35 ~6K cinema mode, sensor and lenses wouldn't be the only thing you'd be replacing. The brain might need behind-the-sensor upgrades to have the horsepower for those framerates.

All that said, I bet they'll stick with S35 for the Dragon upgrade and save FF35 for a separate brain (whether it be an addition to the line-up or an Epic successor).
 
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