Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Dragon vs. 65mm film...

For digital to be superior than film in every aspect, it must show a gigantic progress in color and also a way better skin tones reproduction and highlight handling. Is this all going to happen within the next sensor ?. Please let me remain skeptic until I can see the images with my own eyes.
 
Jarred Land said:
Pretty safe to say that Dragon killed HDRx...
Click to expand...

I'm so glad that HDRx will be gone, I never use it and I won't use it, I hate it from its invention.
Same as I don't drive a turbo charged engine car, I only drive a naturally aspirated engine car.
REDONE had two FPGA, I have no idea that Epic's internal ASIC layout, adding more FPGA is cumbersome but will work any size of sensor upgrade.

THANK YOU! THANK YOU!
 
Rodrigo Lizana said:
For digital to be superior than film in every aspect, it must show a gigantic progress in color and also a way better skin tones reproduction and highlight handling. Is this all going to happen within the next sensor ?. Please let me remain skeptic until I can see the images with my own eyes.
Click to expand...


Let me join you in your skepticism, even when I am very impressed today with the work they did with "THE HOBBIT", (honestly!).


Also, it looks like people still don't realize this fact, about Red and HDRx either, so I'll say it again:


"Images coming from digital camera sensors, any of them, it doesn't matter, even from the Dragon sensor, they don't blend nicely from dark to highlights in only one shot, in particular situations. You either will end up with a normal image with blown highlights somewhere, or one that is too dark. Is inherent in any digital sensor", that is a fact.


How are you going to deal with such a latitude, (Dragon's 16 stops) without HDRx?.


Probably Jarred Land wasn't realizing this fact when he said, that "is pretty safe to say that Dragon killed HDRx"... or... He knows something, that we don't..


And for you Mr. Funahara, I am posting this HDRx magic motion blend image again, together with the original "A" frame, so you can see that is impossible to accomplish this without HDRx..


The "A" frame:


small2_zps54dc5f04.jpg




HDRX magic motion blend:


small_zps751f84ec.jpg
 
Last edited:
Today I finally had the opportunity to see the LG 84" Ultra HD display. It was using 4K timelapse shots to showcase the screen. I was blown away. Everything looked stunningly 3 dimensional, even without stereoscopic 3D. I think Red is absolutely correct in going up in resolution. If we could get that same impact I had when watching the LG screen on the Big Screen- I've only seen 4K projection in probably not optimal conditions- I can see this as a much more viable future than even current stereoscopic 3D. An eye opener, and I really, really want that TV and Redray!
 
Bingo Sergio. That's the true allure of 4K delivery and display. It takes you away from where you are and sucks you into the image.
 
Pablo Moreno said:
How are you going to deal with such a latitude, (Dragon's 16 stops) without HDRx?.
Probably Jarred Land wasn't realizing this fact when he said, that "is pretty safe to say that Dragon killed HDRx"... or... He knows something, that we don't..

And for you Mr. Funahara, I am posting this HDRx magic motion blend image again, together with the original "A" frame, so you can see that is impossible to accomplish this without HDRx..
Click to expand...

Fortunately, I have worked the sensor technology and also worked this industry since 1974. (I had some detour a few years)
Some people like the way of the look of "High dynamic range imaging" (HDR), and some people love high ASA digital for night shoot.
My case is different, I rely on more man's talents and their creativity than newer technologies.
Many people include myself, to me high ASA on night scene looks like daytime, and HDR in motions are somehow that it limited.
If we have problem of dynamic range (blown out highlights whatever), we use artificial light to compensate and balance out the latitude.

The EpicRed is my personal choice of the camera, but I can choose whatever I want, regarding motion/image capture sensor technology.
For example, the newer Foveion sensor technology and a few other new sensor technology researcher/developer that without HDR, be able to capture those blown out highlight.
Those new high dynamic range capture sensors are on a way to the market.
Yes, the world is not perfect, and be patient.
 
Pablo Moreno said:
small.jpg
Click to expand...

If I will get THAT without luma keying or any post trickery, just with default in-camera gamma/color settings, what else do you need? Improved noise floor levels? Duh. Film is still film, obviosuly, but DR is King, man.
 
Pablo Moreno said:
Let me join you in your skepticism, even when I am very impressed today with the work they did with "THE HOBBIT", (honestly!).


Also, it looks like people still don't realize this fact, about Red and HDRx either, so I'll say it again:


"Images coming from digital camera sensors, any of them, it doesn't matter, even from the Dragon sensor, they don't blend nicely from dark to highlights in only one shot, in particular situations. You either will end up with a normal image with blown highlights somewhere, or one that is too dark. Is inherent in any digital sensor", that is a fact.


How are you going to deal with such a latitude, (Dragon's 16 stops) without HDRx?.


Probably Jarred Land wasn't realizing this fact when he said, that "is pretty safe to say that Dragon killed HDRx"... or... He knows something, that we don't..


And for you Mr. Funahara, I am posting this HDRx magic motion blend image again, together with the original "A" frame, so you can see that is impossible to accomplish this without HDRx..


The "A" frame:

small2.jpg


HDRX magic motion blend:

small.jpg
Click to expand...

Maybe an ND filter would have given the same results.
 
Elsie N said:
Maybe an ND filter would have given the same results.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly.

There isn't really too much dr in that image, just a bit of optimistic exposure, the lows are pretty high, so Disn't really the issue...

Doesn't really prove any point IMHO...

I like having the HDRx option, but admittedly, 9 out of 10 times I have selectd it whenrecording, I have ended up not using it, and sometimes it actually creates issues.. If Dragon has 16 stops of latitude (not engineer-measured DR), I think we can do fine without it. But I would prefer those stops to come at least partly in the top range compared to the MX.

Those ND's can be heavy to carry...

I don't need all the extras in the dark...

Really with Chosei on lighting.

And to be honest, I think that is a huge part of photography. To master light.
That's what gives you controll.

Not the ability to hit record under "any" condition.

Wasn't like that on film either...
 
With Gunleik on that HDRx shot above - what shadow detail of relevance is the A frame preserving? Nothing that makes it to the blended frame, so I'd just call it overexposed...

Exposure bracketing and hence HDRx are only valuable if you bracket the scene brightness that benefits you correctly.

I hope HDRx is only figuratively dead - I use it to aid motion tracking in scenes, and for stills extraction. Its unparalleled for that, if not for its headline use case.
 
John Marchant said:
With Gunleik on that HDRx shot above - what shadow detail of relevance is the A frame preserving? Nothing that makes it to the blended frame, so I'd just call it overexposed...

Exposure bracketing and hence HDRx are only valuable if you bracket the scene brightness that benefits you correctly.

I hope HDRx is only figuratively dead - I use it to aid motion tracking in scenes, and for stills extraction. Its unparalleled for that, if not for its headline use case.
Click to expand...

Yup, John. i see those uses.
I have noticed that for complicated scenes there can be a catch in having to process two streams with the same amount of data capacity. Sometimes images need the full attention to get the best encoding.

But I would also kinda love to see it "not go".

But if I had to choose, I'd gladly take 16 useable stops of DR over HDRx... Kinda... From my corner of things...
Best would be to keep it, though
 
Maybe not the best image to show what you can really do with HDRx, but it will be bad if they get rid completely of that feature.. in the other hand, that technology is been improved everyday, we just have to be patient, I agree with that.
 
Last edited:
Can Dragon shoot more persuasive 4K eye candy?

Can Dragon shoot more persuasive 4K eye candy?

I am reading hopefully about the Dragon sensor from a different perspective. 4K home theater projectors have been easing consumers into the 4K format at the high end. Now, 4K TVs are joining in. (But smaller screens can fool us. Smaller always looks sharper.) I am hoping Dragon has the capability to really help provide what I have been having difficulty finding: higher resolution and sharper 4K projector demo content. It has to be able to show off the full capability and potential of high end true 4K projection on large screens. Demo content for true 4K has to provide obviously better looking pictures than the best up-scaled 1080P stuff available. Not just to the trained eye, but also to the public eye. Unfortunately
the best 1080P stuff up-scaled by the best processing often looks better than some of the weaker native 4K stuff available. I hope that is mostly because there is currently so little 4K to pick from. But I have found myself expecting more from the 4K native stuff I have seen so far. I hate being disappointed, but I get that a lot. I know how good it could be.

Good 4K projectors and scalers are so much better than what most people are used to looking at that content standards have to be raised to show how much higher the ceiling is now. Most of the “4K” stuff I have seen is OK, but not great as demo eye candy. Sometimes the scenes provided just aren't the best choice for demo purposes. Too many scenes look soft or washed out. Sometimes they just look like they have been dusted in talcum powder. Or they don't use much dynamic range, or just don't have enough edge detail, or are weak in contrast, or make insufficient use of deep primary colors against deep blacks. (I have a much longer list.) 4K demos need to be stunning. Trailers usually focus on selling the movie rather than selling the format/projector, as they should. Selling the movie is their primary job. But for a good 4K demo, there has to be more attention given to showing off resolution in terms of perfect focus, with more shots that emphasize definition, edge detail, texture, etc. But also including quality elements most people would readily associate with “a better picture.” There has to be more wow factor, hopefully related to 4K, but without neglecting other things that make people stop and say "Man that looks good."

The demo content has to meet or exceed the capability of the display to really show it off. What good does it do to demonstrate something that's falling short of its potential? When the first 1080P projector was introduced, a demo short was commissioned. The problem was, it was heavy on art but light on resolution and detail. It made 1080 look like 720 or worse. Maybe they previewed it on a small monitor, instead of seeing it projected on a large screen at high resolution, so they never realized how soft it really looked. I just know it didn't help sell the projector or the concept of 1080P. Somebody was trying to exercise their creative and artistic skills but missed the point of the job they were commissioned to do, which was to make people see an obvious difference and want 1080P and the new projector in their own theaters. Maybe somebody failed to adequately convey that idea to the filmmaker in the first place.

Much more recently there was the 4K Lawrence of Arabia clip that just couldn't be shown. Super res film or not, by the time it reached the 4K projected screen, it had acquired dust storms that were never there (grainy artifacts). Probably the noise was just invisible on lower res small screens. But most of the time there are always reasons for being disappointed when looking for fabulous 4K demo content. Hearing something is film based doesn't really do much to raise my hopes.

High res image "surfers" are about to have a shot at catching the perfect wave. We are about to see a fantastic combination of improved 4K content (higher res sensors), available 4K playback capability (4K servers), and more affordable and amazing 4K projectors. Good demos can help move all of this forward. Enter the Dragon. Higher resolution should go a long way to helping sell 4K and 4K projection as it pushes the envelope for picture quality standards. Combining Dragon with the skill and experience found in this forum, I would love to see the results if many RED users felt challenged to create content that specifically showcases the “4K is visibly better” concept. Where unveiling the beauty and capability of the technology is the heart of the story.

There is a lot riding on making sure enough people get it. Maybe there should be a contest devoted to that. I would be very eager to see what would come out of it. And I think the whole industry would benefit from the pleasure of seeing just how high the ceiling has been raised.

Rob McD.
 
Stoked about Dragon, it looks great!

Not sure if this has been asked or answered, but what about the difference in size between the Dragon sensor and a 65mm filmstrip? I mean, the RED sensor is comparable in size to a 35mm film strip, but not even close to as big a frame as 65mm. Or am I mistaken? You may have more workable resolution, but it's still not the same, as far as sensor sizes go.

Again, forgive me if this has been asked already. - Riley
 
bigger than the current mx sensor but smaller than full frame 35mm

rileytaylor said:
Stoked about Dragon, it looks great!

Not sure if this has been asked or answered, but what about the difference in size between the Dragon sensor and a 65mm filmstrip? I mean, the RED sensor is comparable in size to a 35mm film strip, but not even close to as big a frame as 65mm. Or am I mistaken? You may have more workable resolution, but it's still not the same, as far as sensor sizes go.

Again, forgive me if this has been asked already. - Riley
Click to expand...
 
Chosei Funahara said:
For example, the newer Foveion sensor technology and a few other new sensor technology researcher/developer that without HDR, be able to capture those blown out highlight.
Those new high dynamic range capture sensors are on a way to the market.
Yes, the world is not perfect, and be patient.
Click to expand...

I´ve always been interested in the Foveon technology. Not sure why it never really make it. Would love to know more about what´s going on with Foveon.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top