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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED DAY... Feb. 13th

Eisen Feuer said:
"Choosing to shoot in at 800 in broad daylight," just for the highlight protection advantages etc... just wow. Looks like we might be investing in ND filters if we want any DoF outside...
Click to expand...

Huh? I thought M-X wasnt any more sensitive to light than M1, just much better in shadows. Meaning I should be able to use the exact same amount of ND on M-X as on Red for the same T stop. Was this explained any further?
 
Shawn Nelson said:
Huh? I thought M-X wasnt any more sensitive to light than M1, just much better in shadows. Meaning I should be able to use the exact same amount of ND on M-X as on Red for the same T stop. Was this explained any further?
Click to expand...

Shawn... these are not mutually exclusive thoughts.

Both sensors have the same sensitivity.

Both sensors can be pushed to higher ISO (ASA) settings.

Since the M-X is cleaner, it can be pushed more easily.

There is more highlight protection at higher ISO (ASA).

So... if you need more highlight protection (in any lighting), one of the solutions is to shoot higher ISO (ASA)... which the M-X sensor does better.

So you are more likely to take advantage of the "M-X advantage" outside and use those ND's.

BTW... the new OLPF is much better at IR blockage when you do use NDs.

Hope that helps.

Jim
 
Hey Jim, a quick question regarding "highlight protection with higher ISO"

Why's that? Is it because we're less likely to let it clip when we shoot at a higher ISO? Meaning stopping down more and then get it back from the shadows in post at a high contrast scene?

If for example I shoot a scene at 320 ISO with the M-X sensor and have an orange area (false colors), it might be clipped at 800 where the new sensor feels better? But I won't expose like that if the ISO is set at 800? Is that how we should understand the "M-X highlight protection advantage"?

Thanks for clearing those things up.

One more question, as false colors probably got recalibrated for M-X as well, at which ISO would a grey card show as 18% grey at the given f-stop in false colors?
 
Is this basically the rule of thumb for the MX here?

SHADOWS:
ISO 100 = Less Detail
ISO 1200 = More Detail
Above ISO 1600 The Risk for noise in shadows increases.


CLIPPING:
ISO 100 = Less Protection
ISO 1200 = More Protection

Balance these values based on personal taste, experience and the lighting situation. Stay within the "goal posts" on the UI.

Histogram is RGB values only, not RAW sensor values.

Jannard's Current Personal MX "Sweetspot" = ISO 800

Soderbergh's Current Personal MX "Sweetspot" = ISO 1000

Do I have this correct?
 
Jannard said:
I think in one of the sessions I did say "If we don't make summer, I'll be suicidal (tongue in cheek)". A bit over the top to make the point that we are late and it will kill me (figuratively) if we don't finish up by then. You had to be there. This is why I don't do magazine interviews... :-)

Jim
Click to expand...

haha... yes that was my question and I thought it was a good answer. Summer sounds very reasonable. Just know we're ready when you are... so whether it's summer or later I know many, many people who will jump on board the day it's released.
 
Dustin Brown said:
haha... yes that was my question and I thought it was a good answer. Summer sounds very reasonable. Just know we're ready when you are... so whether it's summer or later I know many, many people who will jump on board the day it's released.
Click to expand...

yup, there are a lot of us ready when you are for scarlet (and more).

especially with Scarlet, we must all look like raving, starving wolves to Jim and the rest! .... and we are! but I think its important to know we are the kind of wolves who are very GRATEFUL for the gazelle we are about to eat.

jeff
 
Shawn Nelson said:
Huh? I thought M-X wasnt any more sensitive to light than M1, just much better in shadows. Meaning I should be able to use the exact same amount of ND on M-X as on Red for the same T stop. Was this explained any further?
Click to expand...

Shawn - we are currently shooting a feature (Hypothermia) on the MX. It takes place on frozen lake - snow everywhere - with tons of BRIGHT, daylight exteriors - contrasting with night exteriors and even underwater footage as well. They are rating EVERYTHING at ISO 800. And while you may panic at the thought of shooting daylight exteriors at ISO 800 - you don't have to - but at that exposure index - the skin tones and dynamic range are off the charts amazing.

TRUST ME ... you will fall in love with this sensor.

You can rate at ISO 100 or 250 - but you'd be missing all that is amazing about this wafer. NDs = YES = GOOD.

When do you get your upgrade Shawn??
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Shawn - we are currently shooting a feature (Hypothermia) on the MX. It takes place on frozen lake - snow everywhere - with tons of BRIGHT, daylight exteriors - contrasting with night exteriors and even underwater footage as well. They are rating EVERYTHING at ISO 800. And while you may panic at the thought of shooting daylight exteriors at ISO 800 - you don't have to - but at that exposure index - the skin tones and dynamic range are off the charts amazing.

TRUST ME ... you will fall in love with this sensor.

You can rate at ISO 100 or 250 - but you'd be missing all that is amazing about this wafer. NDs = YES = GOOD.

When do you get your upgrade Shawn??
Click to expand...


Very encouraging. Thanks
 
Jeff Coatney said:
Is this basically the rule of thumb for the MX here?

SHADOWS:
ISO 100 = Less Detail
ISO 1200 = More Detail
Above ISO 1600 The Risk for noise in shadows increases.


CLIPPING:
ISO 100 = Less Protection
ISO 1200 = More Protection

Balance these values based on personal taste, experience and the lighting situation. Stay within the "goal posts" on the UI.

Histogram is RGB values only, not RAW sensor values.

Jannard's Current Personal MX "Sweetspot" = ISO 800

Soderbergh's Current Personal MX "Sweetspot" = ISO 1000

Do I have this correct?
Click to expand...

This is what I remember hearing Jim say on Saturday. So it sounds correct.
 
Jannard said:
I think in one of the sessions I did say "If we don't make summer, I'll be suicidal (tongue in cheek)". A bit over the top to make the point that we are late and it will kill me (figuratively) if we don't finish up by then. You had to be there. This is why I don't do magazine interviews... :-)

Jim
Click to expand...

I thought the money quote from the second session Q&A was Jim's commentary about what he gets the most satisfaction from. Yes it's cool, he said, to see major features being shot on Red, and the industry cachet that comes with that, comparing that to his Oakley days when Michael Jordan was on the Board of Directors, hanging out with Lance Armstrong etc...but the thing that he gets the biggest kick out of now is seeing what low-budget indies are doing with Red. What a non-Hollywood-like thing to say, I thought, as we all sat in the heart of Hollywood itself...
 
nikharper said:
anybody happen to film red day? probably not, i'm sure it was way to crazy in there to do it, but just in case, i'll ask
Click to expand...

No cameras allowed in the presentation area, only the mini-NAB area on the other side of the curtain.
 
nikharper said:
ok yeah that was my other thought. Too bad though, I would have loved to see everything, just not able to fly out there haha
Click to expand...

Nik- RED DAY consisted of like 4 Parts.

Part one and two were in the theater side of the sound studio.

Part one was Jim (seriously- you gotta see and meet the guy. Class all around) talking about resolutions. Nothing beyond what is in the Big Resolution News in the RECON thread. Then he showed the two current reels. The big impact was it was on a 40 ft screen shot off the new 4K Sony Projector. It wouldn't have translated well to anything, but a Red One (not exactly easily concealed).

The second Part was a talk by Michael Cioni on workflow. Which I'll admit, would be nice to see again. I'm still not quiet sure what happened. Lots of info really quickly.

The Third part was a hands on/NAB walk around with 4 or 5 stations. They tried to replicate the LEO @ ISO 2000 feel, so it was pitch black. Again, unless you had a Red One, you weren't going to get a video that was worth watching.

The forth part was a Q and A back on the theater side. I, honestly, didn't stay. The people I drove were ready to leave and I was already on a bit of information and visual overload. Not to mention I'm a video guy who is interested in RED, not a film guy, and when I'm in a room of Film guys, I prefer to STFU and not look like an idiot- I would have been tempted to ask a question that would have resulted in a face plant to the palm for the film guys.

The only parts that would be nice to see are the Michael Cioni talk and the Q and A. But because that stuff if off the cuff, it'd be hard to make sure the messages are consistent. So I understand why they didn't film and distribute it.

The other parts would be impossible to accurately and fairly give justice to the hands approach. If you're worried about epic/scarlet, the forums are the best place for information. The guys where just answering how they'd been instructed.

For the guys who did stuff in the nab side of the sound stage, I see no reason the prevents them from making a video and posting it with the same information they presented- Its not like they don't know how to use a camera and youtube (worse case of course).

It was great, but I woudn't have flown across the country for it.

Billy
 
Some lady in front of me was filming one of the presentations on the theater side. Security was on her quick and they deleted the video clip off her camera. Some people just don't listen to instructions very well.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Shawn - we are currently shooting a feature (Hypothermia) on the MX. It takes place on frozen lake - snow everywhere - with tons of BRIGHT, daylight exteriors - contrasting with night exteriors and even underwater footage as well. They are rating EVERYTHING at ISO 800. And while you may panic at the thought of shooting daylight exteriors at ISO 800 - you don't have to - but at that exposure index - the skin tones and dynamic range are off the charts amazing.

TRUST ME ... you will fall in love with this sensor.

You can rate at ISO 100 or 250 - but you'd be missing all that is amazing about this wafer. NDs = YES = GOOD.

When do you get your upgrade Shawn??
Click to expand...

Thanks Mark!

So if you are rating it at iso800, does that mean you're constantly rocking an ND1.5+pola?

The part that confuses me, is when you put 7 stops worth of light cutting filtration on the front, sure, you're dropping the highlights, but you're also cutting the under-the-trees shadows by 7 stops. So what advantage is there? Why not just rate it at iso320 and then stop the lens or put ND until the highlights are protected? I must be missing something.

I got my upgrade weeks ago! It's out on rental down in LA so I havent gotten to play with it yet!
 
Billy Gedney said:
Nik- RED DAY consisted of like 4 Parts.

Part one and two were in the theater side of the sound studio.

Part one was Jim (seriously- you gotta see and meet the guy. Class all around) talking about resolutions. Nothing beyond what is in the Big Resolution News in the RECON thread. Then he showed the two current reels. The big impact was it was on a 40 ft screen shot off the new 4K Sony Projector. It wouldn't have translated well to anything, but a Red One (not exactly easily concealed).

The second Part was a talk by Michael Cioni on workflow. Which I'll admit, would be nice to see again. I'm still not quiet sure what happened. Lots of info really quickly.

The Third part was a hands on/NAB walk around with 4 or 5 stations. They tried to replicate the LEO @ ISO 2000 feel, so it was pitch black. Again, unless you had a Red One, you weren't going to get a video that was worth watching.

The forth part was a Q and A back on the theater side. I, honestly, didn't stay. The people I drove were ready to leave and I was already on a bit of information and visual overload. Not to mention I'm a video guy who is interested in RED, not a film guy, and when I'm in a room of Film guys, I prefer to STFU and not look like an idiot- I would have been tempted to ask a question that would have resulted in a face plant to the palm for the film guys.

The only parts that would be nice to see are the Michael Cioni talk and the Q and A. But because that stuff if off the cuff, it'd be hard to make sure the messages are consistent. So I understand why they didn't film and distribute it.

The other parts would be impossible to accurately and fairly give justice to the hands approach. If you're worried about epic/scarlet, the forums are the best place for information. The guys where just answering how they'd been instructed.

For the guys who did stuff in the nab side of the sound stage, I see no reason the prevents them from making a video and posting it with the same information they presented- Its not like they don't know how to use a camera and youtube (worse case of course).

It was great, but I woudn't have flown across the country for it.

Billy
Click to expand...

Great thanks for the recap! And exactly, I wouldn't want to fly across country either haha plus I have to save my money for scarlet anyways, so it would be retarded to do it.
 
Andrew Walker said:
Some lady in front of me was filming one of the presentations on the theater side. Security was on her quick and they deleted the video clip off her camera. Some people just don't listen to instructions very well.
Click to expand...

Haha that's awesome. What an idiot.
 
Jannard said:
Shawn... these are not mutually exclusive thoughts.

Both sensors have the same sensitivity.

Both sensors can be pushed to higher ISO (ASA) settings.

Since the M-X is cleaner, it can be pushed more easily.

There is more highlight protection at higher ISO (ASA).

So... if you need more highlight protection (in any lighting), one of the solutions is to shoot higher ISO (ASA)... which the M-X sensor does better.

So you are more likely to take advantage of the "M-X advantage" outside and use those ND's.

BTW... the new OLPF is much better at IR blockage when you do use NDs.

Hope that helps.

Jim
Click to expand...

Thanks Jim! I really appreciate that reply, still trying to fully understand this. Let me pull out one statement in there

There is more highlight protection at higher ISO (ASA).
Click to expand...

Does this mean that the iso setting in Red MX changes the way it records light information? On Red1 you could set it from 320 to 2000 and you werent changing zilch about what was actually getting recorded, has this changed on M-X? Or are you speaking to the effect that if I push it to 800, it'll cause ME to further protects the highlights via either more ND or further stopping the lens?

Thanks!
 
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