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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED Color - A look at REDWideGamutRGB/Log3G10

FWIW, I see major improvements in IQ. If I had to guess, I'd say the LOG3G10 rendering looks more "3D" due to the shape of the gamma curve - particularly between 65 and 95IRE (rough guess) that reads as more contrast to my eye.

Where LOG3G10 really knocks my socks off is the richer skin tones. Feels like you can see the blood under the epidermis.

Would love to see Phil's images above on a proper calibrated monitor...

Cheers - #19
 
Patrick Tresch said:
I love what I see in the color level. I love the saturation of the skin tones. I would love to see this on high saturated led colors. To see if there are some clipping problems. I bet not...
Click to expand...

You'd win that bet.

Graeme
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
FWIW, I see major improvements in IQ. If I had to guess, I'd say the LOG3G10 rendering looks more "3D" due to the shape of the gamma curve - particularly between 65 and 95IRE (rough guess) that reads as more contrast to my eye.

Where LOG3G10 really knocks my socks off is the richer skin tones. Feels like you can see the blood under the epidermis.

Would love to see Phil's images above on a proper calibrated monitor...

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Proper calibration does help, but even on my less-than-calibrated monitors things are looking good. I have a couple of nice calibrated ones, and that's what I use for "critical" work, but things have got to look good on "less critical" monitors too. Glad you're enjoying what you're seeing though. The 3D roundness is more than just a gamma thing. (just did a quick test copying brightness information from an old to new raw development, and although the curve seems to bring over some of the effect, it's not the same as the full new development.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Proper calibration does help, but even on my less-than-calibrated monitors things are looking good. I have a couple of nice calibrated ones, and that's what I use for "critical" work, but things have got to look good on "less critical" monitors too. Glad you're enjoying what you're seeing though. The 3D roundness is more than just a gamma thing. (just did a quick test copying brightness information from an old to new raw development, and although the curve seems to bring over some of the effect, it's not the same as the full new development.

Graeme
Click to expand...


Amazing work Graeme! You're really doing an outstanding job and I'm sure I speak for everyone here, thank you for your passion! We all benefit from your love of this.
 
Thanks John. That's really appreciated.

Graeme
 
Hello.

Is this REDWideGamutRGB/Log3G10 a new Helium colour science? Sorry if Im completely off.. just trying to make sense of this.
 
Hi Marek,

What we're working on is better than a new Helium Colour science - it's actually a whole new image processing pipeline. Colour science just gives us the magic numbers that do colorimetry calibration. An image processing pipeline applies those numbers via algorithms and processes that generate the image. The starting point of this new pipeline is REDWideGamutRGB and Log3G10, so that's the link.

This new image processing pipeline is too big to fit into older Red cameras, but we designed Helium cameras with the new processing in mind, so Helium cameras will get a firmware upgrade to enable this. For older cameras we'll leverage the power of R3D and allow access to the new pipeline via REDCine-X (and SDK). Because the first stage of the new pipeline is to put the image in REDWideGamutRGB / Log3G10, that aspect has come first, and it also allows testing of the rest of the new processing.

Hope that helps!

Graeme
 
Hello Graeme.

Thank you for explaining. I think I understand the difference between new processing and colour science... well.. I think.. :)

So REDWideGamutRGB and Log3G10 is a new processing.. Helium colour science is something else?

Those image examples are processed with new processing or its just a new colour science applied?

hmm.. I think Im still confused.. sorry..

When this new helium processing/colour science will be available?
 
"REDWideGamutRGB and Log3G10 is a new processing" - they form the foundation the new processing is built up on.

"Helium colour science is something else? " - every camera has it's own colour science. If that was not the case you'd turn the camera on and the colours would not be right at all. We always do a new colour science for each and every camera. However, people have taken to calling things like DragonColor and REDGamma4 "colour science", and although they're related, it makes things confusing when they have sensor names and the like. One of the goals is to tidy this all up thus:

colour science - colorimetry calibration that is always done for each camera.

image processing pipeline - the processes and algorithms that turn raw data + colour science data into desired output image.

The example you're seeing are a way of testing out the new image processing. They work from a base raw development of REDWideGamutRGB/Log3G10, and have the extra new image processing pipeline applied to them via a 3D LUT so that the algorithms and proceses can be more easily tested.

As for when - as soon as possible I'm eagre to get this out into more people's hands!

Graeme
 
Thank you for your patient answer Graeme.

Look forward to have the right blood in veins of the EpicW :)

Can't leave not asking... Is it in theory, after all processing and colorimenty, possible to achieve similar look to what Arri cameras are known for?

All the best!
 
Comparing things like that is rather subjective. All I can say is that when I put up some early test images on the big screen at Red Studios, they were some of the very nicest looking digital camera images I've seen, and the processing has been improved a lot in since then. I'll leave the camera comparisons to others, and concentrate on making nice images.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
(snip) The 3D roundness is more than just a gamma thing. (just did a quick test copying brightness information from an old to new raw development, and although the curve seems to bring over some of the effect, it's not the same as the full new development.
Click to expand...

The steeper section of the gamma curve that appears to be present between 2 and 5 stops over mid gray reveals more gradations, particularly in areas where side or rim light "wraps" around subjects. I believe it is this added information in the transition areas that yields a greater sense of 3D.

Not surprised the effect is more prominent with all the new development changes vs just the gamma curve. My guess would be that the purer colors and better base saturation levels are adding some color contrast that enhances the viewer's ability to read dimensional cues.

Cheers - #19
 
Going good Fergus.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Going good Fergus.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Graeme, good to hear the update going good! By the way, is the red ray officially killed off? Just read "Red Ray 4k delivery" in your tagline. I almost forgot it by now. Ok did not want to hijack the thread.
 
Not for me to say Joel.

Graeme
 
I liked the idea of it and were close to jump on it back then. Would be cool if it were to be reborn again in version 2.
 
Would it be possible to deliver a "RAW" RedWG/Log3G10 mode?

It would be neat if we could set it to a RAW mode for ProRes much like the Lightroom RAW JPEG Proxy workflow. Obviously debayer improvements wouldn't be possible but users could adjust white balance, ISO, etc. easily with an SDK. It would be a known-starting point.
 
Graeme,

Will the Processing pipeline you describe above as " the processes and algorithms that turn raw data + colour science data into desired output image" , which I believe I understand as one that would fix "out of range colors" currently being experienced with the Helium Sensor, bring the image partly or entirely into the REC 709 Colorspace?

For example, using a frame from a sample video provided by Phil Holland from a Weapon 6K camera, would it fix the " out of range colors" and bring the image entirely into the REC709 colorspace like Dragoncolor/ Redgamma 4 does for the Image A below:

Image A
W001_C005_1014V3 by rand thompson, on Flickr

Or would it fix the " out of range colors" but leave the image in a "Log like" appearance(The way REDwidegamutRGB/ Log3g10 looks now) like the Image B Which can have a custom S-curve added with secondaries like the graded Image C below:

Image B
W001_C005_1014V3 by rand thompson, on Flickr

Image C
32097134920_69c36ea0a0_o.jpg
[/url]Untitled00086527 jpg by rand thompson, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
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The system is configurable to work the way you need it to. But if there are any colour space transforms as part of the process to produce the image you want, those colours will get mapped in such a way as to stop them going out of gamut.

The system knows standard colour spaces, and the camera, so it can figure out which colours are reproducible in any given space, and which need management. Those that need management are brought in line. This is independent of the linearity so could equally apply to a log image as a finished image ready to display on a monitor or in HDR.

Graeme
 
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