RED Color - A look at REDWideGamutRGB/Log3G10

[Marc Wielage]

And what if...that minus yellow doesn't fix all the stuff ?

Then I beat on it with a hammer. It's the nature of the job -- it's what we do. We do what it takes in post to make it right. Trust me, film could sometimes be even worse.

I see the improvement in "fleshiness" but the amount of yellow in the skin seems a little hit or miss (spot on or too much), depending on the lighting and environment.

I would like to see a DSC color chart and a gray scale chart full-frame. Show me that as a RedLogFilm image, and we could get a better sense of what could be done in post.

I honestly see RedColor/DragonColor and RedGamma purely as dailies tools for temporary color. As long as the image can be manipulated in post, and there's a reasonable starting point, the changes don't matter. What I do look for are differentiations between skin tone, particularly if you have a pale person, a normal person, a person with kind of "patchy" skintone, and a very tanned person in the same shot. If the camera maintains those differences, no problem.

I get that there are people who just go with RedCineX color all the way through the final due to budget and time limitations. But I don't think it's ideal, and you can squeeze out a lot more from these images with effort. Judging the results of RedColor/Gamma on 8-bit computer displays doesn't do the cameras justice.

 

[Akin A]

Thanks for sharing, but I'm not feeling those yellow/orange skin tones at all. I much prefer the DC2/RG4 looks.

 

[Juan Melara]

I'm sure it's just me, but I definitely prefer the REDColor2/REDGamma4 look to the "new" look being mentioned. It just looks a lot more natural to me.

Stephen

You're not alone.

To me these look like a good example of the increased colour separation and tonality provided by RWG as transformed to Rec709 through the specific LUT Phil is using. Increased colour separation is good thing in most cases. BUT at the same time these examples are accentuating precisely what clients dislike about Red footage when it comes to skin tones! Not a good thing.

To be honest most of the RWG/3g10 testing results people are posting actually look like a step backward when compared to previous Red colour science. Better in some areas, worse in others but generally not really an improvement.

RWG certainly allows more flexibility over previous colour spaces. But with that flexibility comes great responsibility in that the person colouring needs to know how to manipulate, transform and work in the larger colour space. And as evident in the other thread, if you don't know what you're doing, you can quickly get yourself into trouble.

 

[paulherrin]

Then I beat on it with a hammer. It's the nature of the job

:badputer:

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I'm sure it's just me, but I definitely prefer the REDColor2/REDGamma4 look to the "new" look being mentioned. It just looks a lot more natural to me.

The latter is not a "new look".

It is a new color and luminosity data interpretation needed for a usable image.
Which still needs shaping to get to a proper image.

The "look", as in initial appearance of gamma/sat corrected image, depends on what has been done to the signal on top of that base color and gamma.

Then I beat on it with a hammer. It's the nature of the job -- it's what we do. We do what it takes in post to make it right.

Okay...so...what if...in most cases you didn' t have to beat on it with a hammer any more ?

Would you continue doing it every single time, because that is what, based on all the previous experiences, you had been perceiving as the nature of the job ?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

We still don't have the official LUT conversion from Red so the final standardized workflow isn't ready yet. But I do agree that the final image should be more on par with Alexa looks. However people feel about Red colors vs Alexa colors, at the end of the day the Alexa colors is what most people want and need. So closer to that look would be powerful and if the conversion LUT could in some ways provide such a base look as it's output that would be very much appreciated and helpful. Even if Red doesn't do it, maybe someone else could do a good conversion LUT RWG/3G10 to Alexa (709)

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

maybe someone else could do a good conversion LUT RWG/3G10 to Alexa (709)

Why would you want to do that ?

 

[Phil Holland]

Just to help people understand a few things. In the hotel rooms thus far there's a strange mix of daylight and tungsten-ish sources.

This particular image:

Was shot right in front of a large window with daylight shooting in. I'm a slightly tan fellow and shooting long hours on the road at the moment. This is pretty much head on the nail my skin color.

This one is a similar concept:

Big window, damn near exactly what I see in the mirror when it comes to my general flesh tones.

In the other shots you'll see rim lighting that's warm/yellow or even as fill light.

 

[David Battistella]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?148272-RedWideGamutRGB-discuss!

Maybe merge these threads Phil to keep the discussion and samples all in one space.

David

 

[Steven Abrams]

This is pretty much head on the nail my skin color.

If it's head on nail for your skin color in the right image, sincerely you should consider seeing a doctor asap. Or maybe not view these under horrible hotel lighting?

 

[paulherrin]

i suspect it's a good time for everyone to recalibrate

 

[Patrick Tresch]

... However people feel about Red colors vs Alexa colors, at the end of the day the Alexa colors is what most people want and need.

I only speak for myself but I shoot Red because I love the image it makes, a strong and colorful picure with a huge amount of details and flexibility. Tell me one argument why I should need an Alexa look in a Red camera if I could easily rent an Alexa to achive it? But I don't like the muddy picture Alexa makes. Alexa is far from the gold standard some want it to be.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I only speak for myself but I shoot Red because I love the image it makes, a strong and colorful picure with a huge amount of details and flexibility. Tell me one argument why I should need an Alexa look in a Red camera if I could easily rent an Alexa to achive it? But I don't like the muddy picture Alexa makes. Alexa is far from the gold standard some want it to be.

I wouldn't call the Alexa image muddy, but it is a image with less resolution technically. Lenses play such a critical role as I have seen the gamut of lenses on both cameras and sometimes it's very eye opening.

Ultimately, like you said it really comes down to whether one is happy with the images they are able to create. You've done some really nice work and got the most of out of your REDs. Of course, I still think you would deliver great work on an Alexa too, but you enjoy shooting with the RED and that counts for a lot.

 

[paulherrin]

Ultimately, like you said it really comes down to whether one is happy with the images they are able to create. You've done some really nice work and got the most of out of your REDs. Of course, I still think you would deliver great work on an Alexa too, but you enjoy shooting with the RED and that counts for a lot.

good point in the conversation that never ends...

 

[Phil Holland]

Well I'll just post some more examples of various things and ignore the weirdness of daylight not being a good light source.

I apologize in advance at the shear number of images, but I am testing this rather thoroughly in my downtime on this shoot as I'm using the workflow for finals now.

All of this is Dragon, either DSMC or DSMC2. I have a bazillion test images on one of my travel drives.

A few color charts first.

Short list of things I'm seeing just based on this medley of squares. Much, much truer blues and actual purple. Color is indeed purer and more vibrant. The two super man shirt images fascinate me as the sun has changed position and the angle of incidence and intensity have revealed more texture.

Some familiar images, some not.

This looks very exciting in terms of amping up the colors you'd expect here.

The two shots from the "It's Just Paint Shoot" are rather telling of the three dimensional quality that Graeme has mentioned via this method. There's a whole lot I like regarding how these particular images look. Highlights, skin in the hand, density, vibrance, etc...

Interesting looking at just straight Color Space and Gamma Curve images after a few of these things have been graded and long forgotten.

Anywho. Likely turning away from this for a brief moment while the boards are hammered down further into the ground. Curious to see where it goes from here.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

F. That looks nice. I get it

 

[Akin A]

I see orange people.

 

[Brad Grimm]

I see orange people.

Yea, Don't know if its the LUT or what, but feels like a step in the wrong direction.

 

[Adam Montville]

hmmm. I noticed that it's bringing out some fringing, or what 'looks' to be CA next to high contrast areas. For example these two:

Look at the brown shelf in the background. There is some green coming out of the brown now. Also,

Her hair, on the left hand side of the picture. Introducing some green on the edges of the hair and shirt. I would like to zoom in to see what's going on there.

Everything else looks really good though! Looking at skin tone closer, I think it just seems a tad too saturated, and I think dialing back just very slightly may be beneficial.

 

[sam karr]

Yea, Don't know if its the LUT or what, but feels like a step in the wrong direction.

Agree, so far it adds some of what I always tried to dial down. And this is compared to Dragoncolor2 which is already bringing some colors way too far for my tastes.