RED and P+S Technik IMS

[Raul Gonzo]

Dear RED One owners and users, who are interested in the IMS.

Please have a look onto our website to read about our opinion and our efforts.

http://www.pstechnik.de/en/optics-ims-red.php

We are still hoping for the best.

P+S TECHNIK, Munich

This press release is very sad.
This is still the missing piece
with an almost perfect camera.

 

[Tim Naylor]

Smell the coffee everyone. This has nothing to do with communication issues or lack of respect. It has to do with great respect - for the IMS design or RED wouldn't be shilling their "coincidentally" virtually identical system on Scarlet or Epic and suppressing PS design at the same time. It's corporate hardball plain and simple. It's the religious allegiance of RED owners that I find even more annoying (you know, obey your Gods, thou shall not speak ill of thy Lord thy God, thou Shall not use non-kosher lens mounts less thee suffer thy wrath, etc....).

This is a forum where people should speak their mind, yet I see the most pathetic kowtowing dialogue here in that no one's really talking about the elephant in the room. The irony of a company that "liberates" the indies having an oppressive presence on candid conversation is hardly lost on me.

But it's now clear that PS no longer requires any mods whatsoever, so what's the problem? Use it. It's like speeding down an empty highway. You won't get a ticket unless you arrest yourself. Now that IMS leaves no more a "fingerprint" than using the RED Nikon mount, I don't know why people are getting their "knickers in a twist". But God is watching.

What gets me is how can you justify voiding a warranty on something that requires no mods on your camera? My sound board goes out, should the warranty be voided because I have an IMS? My GUI goes on the fritz. Sorry can't help you - you have an IMS. This is absurd beyond reason. Now that there are no technical reasons to void the warranty what reasons are we left with than "your God is a ruthless God" and when he sees a good thing wants it for himself.

But I can't imagine your God having the machine chops of PS Technik. IMS is an amazing development by a company that has a build / machining quality in a different league altogether. Their stuff is Arri level. If they made cameras fuhgeddaboutit.

If I had the lenses and cash I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Good luck. I hope it works out for buyers (not like we'll hear from them). Someone tell me how well it works. I won't give you up.

PM me at cinetim@mac.com

Knock it out PS people. I love your products - you're just too damn good for your own good.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Look as much as everyone would like to throw this around, the situation is actually a very simple one.

Anybody that owns the IMS please look at the back of your mount and tell me if they've created a groove or compartment in the underside of the lens that holds the I-Data wire?

If there is one, and it's easy to PROTECT the wire when installing the mount, then let's talk some more, if there is not one, then this goes back to Jim's origional complaint of the mount which he made publically a long time ago.

Also, please remember that IMS is not out of the picture. They are just being pissy and not thinking long term, Scarlet and Epic have been redesigned to handle alternative mounts with about 100x LESS complications.

When RED designed the R1 they simply did not realize the extent to which companies would modify the lens mount, but they learned from this, and in response to its customers put a new design into the camera that will allow for this without grief to the other vendors or RED.

Because of the videos I am producing, I have been forced to swap the R1 Lens mount numerous times (Long story) and I am here to tell you, messing with that I-Data cable is risky. And it's a PAIN to repair. I don't blame RED for wanting to avoid it.

IMS is being pissy about building a mount for a camera that will only be around for another 8 months or so. They will have free reign on the next one.

Jeez.....

Jay

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Jay,

RED users must be clear that with IMS at this stage it is not possible to use i-data from the lens via RED i-cable.

Only it is possible to display and ingest i-data from some of REDzooms and Cooke S-4 lenses via

Cinematography Electronics /i Lens Display System

Cinematography Electronics /i Lens Display System

or

CMOTION's Camin module

CMotion's CAMIN "The brain of the system".

Look as much as everyone would like to throw this around, the situation is actually a very simple one.

Anybody that owns the IMS please look at the back of your mount and tell me if they've created a groove or compartment in the underside of the lens that holds the I-Data wire? Jay

There is no place for any kind of groove or compartment in the underside of the IMS "mount" because there were placed shims for collimation.

If there is one, and it's easy to PROTECT the wire when installing the mount, then let's talk some more, if there is not one, then this goes back to Jim's origional complaint of the mount which he made publically a long time ago.

Only they (P+ST) could do it is to make a sort of "safe capsule" where you could store i-cable and leave it inside RED body.

Because of the videos I am producing, I have been forced to swap the R1 Lens mount numerous times (Long story) and I am here to tell you, messing with that I-Data cable is risky. And it's a PAIN to repair. I don't blame RED for wanting to avoid it.

Once you put IMS on RED1 than you are really not in a need to take it of.

You'll get all mounts you would need PL, Panavision, Nikon, Canon, Leica, Contax...

IMS is being pissy about building a mount for a camera that will only be around for another 8 months or so. They will have free reign on the next one.

I would wish that first we should get Mysterium-X to upgrade our REDs and then when everything get improved with M-X sensor DR, latitude and 5K workflow RED should start with shipping new cameras.

Jim wrote once that they are not interesting in any kind of fast making money because they goal is a high quality (PRO) and that takes a bit time to make it.

And now have a look below at my latest and "ulitimate" mobile RED1 rig.

 

[alex trettenero]

Smell the coffee everyone. This has nothing to do with communication issues or lack of respect. It has to do with great respect - for the IMS design or RED wouldn't be shilling their "coincidentally" virtually identical system on Scarlet or Epic and suppressing PS design at the same time. It's corporate hardball plain and simple. It's the religious allegiance of RED owners that I find even more annoying (you know, obey your Gods, thou shall not speak ill of thy Lord thy God, thou Shall not use non-kosher lens mounts less thee suffer thy wrath, etc....).

This is a forum where people should speak their mind, yet I see the most pathetic kowtowing dialogue here in that no one's really talking about the elephant in the room. The irony of a company that "liberates" the indies having an oppressive presence on candid conversation is hardly lost on me.

But it's now clear that PS no longer requires any mods whatsoever, so what's the problem? Use it. It's like speeding down an empty highway. You won't get a ticket unless you arrest yourself. Now that IMS leaves no more a "fingerprint" than using the RED Nikon mount, I don't know why people are getting their "knickers in a twist". But God is watching.

What gets me is how can you justify voiding a warranty on something that requires no mods on your camera? My sound board goes out, should the warranty be voided because I have an IMS? My GUI goes on the fritz. Sorry can't help you - you have an IMS. This is absurd beyond reason. Now that there are no technical reasons to void the warranty what reasons are we left with than "your God is a ruthless God" and when he sees a good thing wants it for himself.

But I can't imagine your God having the machine chops of PS Technik. IMS is an amazing development by a company that has a build / machining quality in a different league altogether. Their stuff is Arri level. If they made cameras fuhgeddaboutit.

If I had the lenses and cash I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Good luck. I hope it works out for buyers (not like we'll hear from them). Someone tell me how well it works. I won't give you up.

PM me at cinetim@mac.com

Knock it out PS people. I love your products - you're just too damn good for your own good.

i subscribe any line of yours.
but then?
it's not the warranty that everybody fears.
it's the epic swapping, i guess.
if, for any reasons RED is not willing to swap your red one with a brand new epic because of the IMS, then you have quite an expensive problem to face.
so , probably there is a very good reason for this thread to be going on and on so far, knowing we are all driving to a dead end, because RED is not willing to support IMS whatever the reason.
on my part, now that i have seen that the IMS is not getting any attention from RED, i can only keep this thread alive and hope that as many redusers as possible can come here and confirm their interest in IMS.
maybe, hopefully, this will make RED and PS people sit at the same table at some point, and talk.
this is my hope.

Alessandro.

Sanjin, i love your Red outfit!

 

[Martin Weiss]

So, to cut through the crap: is the IMS dead for the RED?

 

[Andrew Benz]

So, to cut through the crap: is the IMS dead for the RED?

I would say yes unfortunately... :head_explode:

 

[Martin Weiss]

I would like some official clarification

I would like some official clarification

If my memory serves me right (and I make no claim that it does), the last official statement from RED was that Jarred was positive towards IMS, and RED wanted to start talks in early 2009. In an earlier statement RED said that the only reason IMS did not get the green light was the i-cable issue. P+S says:

Our Head of RnD (and Technical Oscar award winner, Mr. Dasser), was prepared to immediately fly over to the USA and meet up with the key development players and work out an immediate solution, but regrettably RED did not find this idea of any interest.

Jarred, Jim, is this indeed the case? Could you please explain?

Theorem 1: The IMS damages the R1, be it by the i-Cable, sensor overheating or whatever.
Then why does RED seem to not welcome Mr. Dasser (if I'd been a camera technician, I would kill to meet a technical Oscar™ winner.)

Theorem 2: RED are greedy bastards and want to only have their own lens mount system.
Then R1 would have cost a lot more, we would not have gotten all those free upgrades, and none of the other 3rd party mount providers would have gotten their green lights.

Theorem 3: RED fears that IMS would eat into their future lens sales.
The opposite might just as well be the case. All the lower budget productions that for now have to rely on stills glass, could - with IMS - make a slow transistion to the forthcoming RED primes.

Theorem 4: RED does not want to certify products made by competing companies.
Doesn't sound right. RED says they want to give us users as much choice as possible, and does indeed state willingness to discuss the matter with P+S.


Basically, I just don't get it (If I had been a big fan of conspiracy theories there would've been plenty of fodder).

Why do I have to use a mount made of plastic from a newcomer company that currently does not reply to e-mails, when there is a solution by a key industry player with proven track-record readily available?



P+S still keeps a door open:

Jim Jannard is welcome to visit our booth at NAB 2009 to talk to our Head of RnD

P+S booth at NAB is at SU9924G :ihih:

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

:couch: This situation won't matter much in the near future....

 

[Raul Gonzo]

Jay- do you mean to say "someone" is creating something similar for a R1?
Or are you talking about Scarlet and Epic?

 

[Martin Weiss]

Jay,
What do you know that er don't?

 

[Roberto B]

If my memory serves me right (and I make no claim that it does), the last official statement from RED was that Jarred was positive towards IMS, and RED wanted to start talks in early 2009. In an earlier statement RED said that the only reason IMS did not get the green light was the i-cable issue. P+S says:
Jarred, Jim, is this indeed the case? Could you please explain?

Theorem 1: The IMS damages the R1, be it by the i-Cable, sensor overheating or whatever.
Then why does RED seem to not welcome Mr. Dasser (if I'd been a camera technician, I would kill to meet a technical Oscar™ winner.)

Theorem 2: RED are greedy bastards and want to only have their own lens mount system.
Then R1 would have cost a lot more, we would not have gotten all those free upgrades, and none of the other 3rd party mount providers would have gotten their green lights.

Theorem 3: RED fears that IMS would eat into their future lens sales.
The opposite might just as well be the case. All the lower budget productions that for now have to rely on stills glass, could - with IMS - make a slow transistion to the forthcoming RED primes.

Theorem 4: RED does not want to certify products made by competing companies.
Doesn't sound right. RED says they want to give us users as much choice as possible, and does indeed state willingness to discuss the matter with P+S.


Basically, I just don't get it (If I had been a big fan of conspiracy theories there would've been plenty of fodder).

Why do I have to use a mount made of plastic from a newcomer company that currently does not reply to e-mails, when there is a solution by a key industry player with proven track-record readily available?



P+S still keeps a door open:
P+S booth at NAB is at SU9924G :ihih:

Martin Weiss for mod!!
gang's vote.

 

[Martin Weiss]

:couch: This situation won't matter much in the near future....

Quit hiding behind the sofa

 

[Roberto B]

ehehehehe the gang have always loved your subtleness

 

[Costelloe Michael]

:couch: This situation won't matter much in the near future....

Hey Guys,

I bought the first IMS mount in the UK having been told that it was just a matter of a small wait until the mount was OK'd for use by Red. I waited, and waited and waited some more.

8 months later I sold my still sealed and unused IMS to Panavision in the UK who really don't care about the warrantee it seems. Good for me as I only lost 1/3rd of it's value instead of all of it's value. Personally I don't think P+S should have sold them until they had the OK to use them from Red. I'm really not bitching about this, it could have easily gone the other way.

If I were asked my advice, it would be to hold off until this mount is certified. I would not risk my upgrade offer when there are other options for mounts out there.

Mike Costelloe:Yawn:

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

After NAB 2009 it looks to me that IMS is still the best mount option for RED1.

Here is a part of the latest CA test from this morning:

Lens: Zoom>>>Tamrom 28 - 105mm f/2.8 (FF35) or 18.5 - 70mm T2.9 (S35), weight 840 grams, an ideal option for hand held with RED1.

Shot with Tamrom 28 - 105mm f/2.8 (FF35) or 18.5 - 70mm T2.9 (S35) at 50mm and @ f/8, Filters: Circ-Pola, ND 0.6, ISO 320, shutter 1/50sec, 25 fps

Top view: RED1 with Tamrom 28 - 105mm f/2.8 (FF35) or 18.5 - 70mm T2.9 (S35) attached on adopted Hasselblad lens bellows placed between the lens and matte box.

Download quick & dirty test footage that consists 14 continuos aperture stop down steps from f/2.8 to f/22 >>>

 

[Raul Gonzo]

Has anyone seen Jay? If so- send him over to this thread.

 

[Petros Nousias]

He's probably talking about the forthcoming red IMS for epic/scarlet

 

[Raul Gonzo]

hmmm... c'mon Jay! You,re killing us man!