Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

RED and flash photography...

RCFisher said:
I don't think you will get any different results with a F900 at 24fps since the shutter open duration is similar. There is the tendency to over tech this and sometime just going for it will produce great results.
Click to expand...

The sensor system of the 900 and red are very different and will not give anywhere near the same results. Check out the links to the split screen problem and you will see the issue at hand.

I would not say just go for it and chance it on a complete scene Jim. I see what you are saying RCFisher and going for it works on a shot here or there to take a chance and sometimes works very well. Taking a risk like this on the whole scene though can result in a very grumpy client you will not see again.
 
What about using flashes with high-speed sync? My Canon 580ex has a high-speed mode for shooting at higher shutter speeds. Essentially, the flash strobes at a VERY high rate so that the duration of the light output is longer. A lot of modern flashes have this mode and it wouldn't require any additional cabling or sync boxes etc. Would this work?
 
well..

well..

Jesse Rosten said:
What about using flashes with high-speed sync? My Canon 580ex has a high-speed mode for shooting at higher shutter speeds. Essentially, the flash strobes at a VERY high rate so that the duration of the light output is longer. A lot of modern flashes have this mode and it wouldn't require any additional cabling or sync boxes etc. Would this work?
Click to expand...

i doubt this'd result in a multysplited frame instead of "only" half frames - could look funky though ;)


martin
 
Thanks for the additional brainstorming everyone!

Robert I appreciate the links and ideas. I think I'll rig up something like the light board to give even richer interactive lighting, suggesting even more sources than we have.

Finner, your suggestion is the direction I was leaning toward in my first post... F900 it will probably be. Simply not worth the brain damage on our rather limited budget to engineer this out at this point.

No harm, no foul for RED, I'm just bummed that the first job I have that was right for the RED on so many levels runs up against this sort of subject matter wall. In fairness, would happen with that new little Sony EX1 and the SI as well...
 
Jim if you have the chance it may be worth it to go a few takes with a red handheld on the rehersals. It would be a good test.

Other option is to do a mock test version with some friends in your back yard and show the client exactly what they will get and the downside of it. They may actually like the look.
 
I only know of this as a representation of flash and red:
http://web.mac.com/fini1/iWeb/Site 135/4k Red Camera.html

Not sure if this is your point of reference. It seems that it is a single strobe on the ground right behind the drummer which might be hitting the lens. For your purposes you will have alot more flashes going off. No shutter speed is listed for that vid but without testing various shutter speeds at different strobe intervals and having many flashes going off I cannot see how you can disavow the RED for use. Unless theres another example somewhere I would do a simple test the way you will shoot with changing shutter. It would be a shame to think that every-time a flash is used another camera has to be brought in.
 
It sounds like it would be a good idea, and good knowledge for the benefit of all, to test this out with a RED in general.

We'll let you know what we find!
 
Jim Arthurs said:
It sounds like it would be a good idea, and good knowledge for the benefit of all, to test this out with a RED in general.

We'll let you know what we find!
Click to expand...

Putting this to rest with tested findings would be a great benefit to all.
 
I did a job for the WWE (the wrestling folks) and we needed a bunch of flashes a la an arena show. Since it was all high speed photography, traditional Speedo flashes would have been problematic. The gaffer found a resource in Mexico that had the old school 1940's "Weegee" on-camera flash bulbs. Very long duration. Worked great!
I'll try to dig up his source.
Cheers,
Harry
 
If you use a flash with a longer [multi-frame] duration, it won't be as much of an issue. That's probably why the lightning strikes I used weren't so offensive... there's a bit of inherent warm and cool time with every strike. If it's long enough, it does the trick.

Either that or find some way to genlock a flash...

Long story short: shoot some tests.
 
The most beautiful flash-photography scene I've ever seen, is early on on Three Colours Red, at the fashion show. As I recall, there were lots of people with flash cameras, but you never actually saw one go off; the flashes were all done with arcs coming from many different directions - lovely long flashes with a soft decay. Doesn't look like a real flash gun, but that's a plus, because real flash is vile. (The sound FX make all the difference - nobody in the audience ever thinks they're looking at big lamps going off if they can hear flash guns and whirring cameras.)

These days, you could improve on the above, by adding a couple of post-flashes to the actual flash guns on the SLRs, for realism.
 
Jim,
What are you up too......?

Kidding of course. 'Hi' from Boulder and just about to turn blue waiting for our babies. Maybe a test is in order in the near future???
 
Most good FX houses will have a source/rig to use those old school (long-decay) flash bulbs. Expect to pay about $3 or more a pop since those single-use bulbs are now antiques.

Electronic flash units have a duration in the thousandth's of a second range. With a 180 shutter (1/48) you will statistically catch about half of them, which might be enough for you. In direct opposition to what we are used to in film-land, if you see the flash on the playback it means that the camera 'saw' it too.

The video referenced in post 26 above was shot with the initial shipping firmware. Hopefully the Red gods can tell us if performance has been improved since that time. I suspect it has (remember this was the firmware that couldn't shoot trees).

I still like the 1/24 shutter idea. We have played with it and it looks fine as long as you don't have fast motion. The 24 frame 3:2 pulldown is what gives you much of the film look, so I don't think you lose it by changing shutter speeds.
 
Paulee said:
Jim,
What are you up too......?

Kidding of course. 'Hi' from Boulder and just about to turn blue waiting for our babies. Maybe a test is in order in the near future???
Click to expand...

Hey Paul! Remember that other job from end of year? Same client. Bigger in scope, more VFX, and of course, less budget, you know how that goes... :)

I sure bet you guys are dying, what with the really low '100's with your two numbers... I mean, ship just a handful of new cameras and you're golden!
 
CrewPix.com said:
Most good FX houses will have a source/rig to use those old school (long-decay) flash bulbs. Expect to pay about $3 or more a pop since those single-use bulbs are now antiques.

I still like the 1/24 shutter idea. We have played with it and it looks fine as long as you don't have fast motion. The 24 frame 3:2 pulldown is what gives you much of the film look, so I don't think you lose it by changing shutter speeds.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I hear you... like I said early on, I used to rig up the bulbs from flashcubes with lower voltage to get nice long "pops"... this will get VERY expensive over the course of multiple takes 12 sources, and a full shoot day.

The thing with the shutter speed... my understanding is that the exposure duration isn't acually a factor in eliminating these partial exposures... see this link at the bottom for details...

http://www.redhax.net/wiki/Understanding_Rolling_Shutter_Artifacts
 
Paulee said:
Maybe a test is in order in the near future???
Click to expand...

I'm kinda bridging threads here, but would you guys be up for some serious cold weather testing with 106-107? :cold:
 
Hmm...
We are jumping right into a feature (mostly interiors) so I am not sure how much stress testing we will do.

Colorado + winter + 72fps 2K = what are you thinking?
 
Brook Willard said:
If you use a flash with a longer [multi-frame] duration, it won't be as much of an issue. That's probably why the lightning strikes I used weren't so offensive... there's a bit of inherent warm and cool time with every strike. If it's long enough, it does the trick.

Either that or find some way to genlock a flash...

Long story short: shoot some tests.
Click to expand...

Do you have some sample footage of the lightning strikes? I'd love to see it because this is something I've been wondering about for a while... do the bolts get cut off in the frame?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top