ProRes only - has anyone done it?

[Jakob Wiessner]

For an upcoming TV series I'm considering using a Monstro and skipping REDRAW completely by recording straight to 4K ProRes 422HQ or even 2K ProRes 4444.
Of course I will shoot and evaluate my own tests, but maybe some someone has considered or (successfully) executed such a scenario and can share his / her experience / thoughts?
Thank you!

 

[Björn Benckert]

To my experience, You are better of to shoot 8k r3d + 2 pores LT.
You can do the above using the same bandwith as shooting pores 4444 and your result will still benefit from the r3d route and it will give you the pores proxy on the side to edit from.

Basically the r3d´s pack more punch per megabit.

When doing pores on the side of the r3d you can choose to have it fully graded or flat / RWGRGB. I find it better to have 2k proxies with grade straight from camera for offline editing and then use the r3D´s for grading / online.

Producers are usually scared about rolling 8k and r3d raw, but it absolutely does not mean your data loads will have to be bigger than shooting any other format. on the contrary, 8k monstro needs way less bandwidth to look good as the picture is so clean and the compression works so well on on the monstro / r3d image.

But sure it works to roll prores only there is plenty of Arri shows that done that since the first Alexa classic came out. But having a red camera I don't see a reason not to roll r3d´s as it does not have to more costly disc space vice and you got the proxies on the side to cover the editors needs without the need of a DIT, All you need is data wrangler to move the stuff of the cards to backup drives.

 

[Ian D]

I use pro res only all the time. Arguments for rolling r3d are all valid but some times its not worth the fight, if the producer wants it easy, there is the option, just shoot it right. Pro Res Log 4k 422hq, ( for 24/25 fps only, you have to go to 2k for off speed) thank you and good night.

Kind Regards
Ian

 

[Jakob Wiessner]

Thank you guys, I think that sums it up nicely. "Regular" german TV is just not used to the idea of 8K RAW and post production will use it as a reason to charge extra in 90% of cases.
I'll report about my findings from testing, especially regarding ProRes noise levels and how to deal with DSMC2 internal "Output Sharpening" for ProRes.

Kind Regards

Jakob

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

I'm pretty sure if Red could have 4k Prores 444, a lot of project would be shot in Prores.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I'm pretty sure if Red could have 4k Prores 444, a lot of project would be shot in Prores.

You can shoot DNxHR HQX at 4K which is basically the same thing.

But my experience is that people in the industry bashing R3D in favor of ProRes just don't know what they're talking about. More than people realize, there are far more people in top industry positions who really don't know shit about anything related to workflows. ProRes is a wonderful format, but not many know it's almost exactly the same as DNxHR, which is a cross-platform and open format in comparison. While the entire idea about shooting 8K R3D and supersample down to 4K delivery goes over the heads of people whose entire position is to choose a proper workflow for a project.

People are just plain lazy, they don't care to educate themselves, ask questions, or the rarest thing of all, question themselves about if they have enough information and knowledge to make a certain decision. I don't know how many times I've been forced to explain "why R3D" to people who should know better than me and I'm sick of the pride that people take in holding up an illusion of knowledge just to hold onto their position in the industry. I just wished that people were a little more open with actually confessing to not know everything in order to instead open up to learn something new and through that make better judgment calls on stuff like this. Far too many people try to hide their incompetence behind a smug smile of bullshit and I'm sick of it. If people dared to be humble enough to admit they lack knowledge and want to learn, things would be very different.

 

[Vance Colvig]

Arrogance and ignorance are hallmark traditions in this industry. It is up to us to change the hearts and minds one person at a time. Not a small task due to personal insecurity felt by those who are often the decision makers relying only on what seems to be an "industry standard" or what worked last time. A "heard mentality" if you will, and not the most creative way to move forward in an ever changing world.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Arrogance and ignorance are hallmark traditions in this industry. It is up to us to change the hearts and minds one person at a time. Not a small task due to personal insecurity felt by those who are often the decision makers relying only on what seems to be an "industry standard" or what worked last time. A "heard mentality" if you will, and not the most creative way to move forward in an ever changing world.

True, But I dont know how many productions we rescued trough the years...

Normal scenario, they been out traveling and rolling for a couple of days... gathered a few terabytes of footage on slow small drives. Then they go straight to editing to realize the editor sits on an old mac with pretty much zero GPU power and an old avid install... Then they call me, I help them out and render proxies over night, they loose their first editing day, the editor still ofcourse wants to charge for that day, the "DIT" offcourse want to charge for his days even though he did only half his job. His excuse then is, "if I needed to render proxies that would have taken twice the work hours..." as he also got a shity old trashcan and dont know how to cheat out proxies with low debayer. So in the end the only thing the producer learned from such even is... no red, and especially not any r3d´s.

They simply dont want hassle and the editor, even though he could not digest the prores files straight into his system without recoding them, he would have been self sustainable and not need to call out for help, and he does not care or understand the difference between bit depth, or color baking so for him the r3d´s is nothing but a hassle.

So yes, if you know your stuff as a DP Then you should, single handedly be able to shoot r3d only and deliver both r3d and perfect proxies.

Its simple, offload during the day, mag in computer and dump to drive. No real need for a dedicated person to do that if you as a DP know what you are doing. Then you also can keep an eye on your exposures etc.

Then you do your color timing in the evning, It could be done in the car from set to hotel or what ever, does not take long if you know how.

Then render in the hotelroom over night and deliver a set of perfect best light prores files in the moring.

If you dont know how to do the above, learn. I tought people this process in less than an hour.

If you dont learn well, then you are as I see it uneducated as a DP.

It´s now 2021 and there is simply more to it then lights, exposure and cameras on sholders. Learning how to develop and render your footage and do it well will for sure make you better as a DoP as you quickly will get a deeper knowledge for the whole process, you will gather much better knwoledge from what you actually shot.

 

[M Harvey]

Great advice, Björn!

Also, I think

lights, exposure and cameras on sholders.

would make a great t-shirt.