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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ProRes and Weapon

David Battistella said:
so what's attractive about a 6k prores.

1. This level of DP is comfortable baking in ISO and WB, they do it every day on Alexa.
2. Reframing possibilities and the extra resolution helps.
3. Familiar workflow
4. Raw backup
Click to expand...

What is not attractive about 6K Prores notion:

1. Bandwidth (estimated around 460 MB/s or 1.6 TB per hour)
2. Footage "playability", pampering media, time spent on transfers and backup due to #1
3. DITs hating your guts / straight jacket / possible therapy expenditures due to #1
4. Project archive management and expenditures due to #1



(Aware it tops at 5K, just saying.)
 
Yup.

You are right hrvoje.

How is your name pronounced? I've always wondered that.
 
First four letters as is, "j-e" as in "yes".

Quite a fun in international correspondence.
Combined with google results even greater fun. While my pic and info is not public.
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
Well ... I only know what the menus presented at NAB on the working Weapons with respect to this stuff. But it is obvious that there is independent hardware components encoding the ProRes vs the R3Ds - as it requires different hardware to do those two types of compression. But they are written at the same time to the same media. Which is not trivial.
Click to expand...

Using R3D as a source for Prores recording will require a separate dedicated decompression hardware, which we all know not easy to do. RRX is an example of such hardware. On the other hand, splitting the RAW signal in two paths will only require to debayer and compress for Prores encoding, bypassing compression/decompression process altogether. Obviously I'm just speculating, but based on my previous statement, I lean strongly toward separate paths for Prores and RAW, i.e. independent recording for both.
 
That and the fact that double compression is a less smart thing to do at acquisition.
 
The more annoying thing to me is the highspeed limitations. For me, the r3d is the master. It's the whole reason for choosing Red. But the client or editor also always wants ProRes. The fact that some of what I shoot will have a perfect (lower res) ProRes copy, and some WON'T, is really kludgey.
What if I'm shooting some stuff at 200 fps and some stuff at 60 fps? Only the 60 fps will have a ProRes proxy. I guess I could put all the 200 fps stuff on one card, and render it all out with my Red Rocket that no client wants to pay for. But BOOOYYYYYYY that seems like another route to the "Red is complicated" conversation I always seem to have to get into...
What if the ProRes size or file type was the limiting factor, and not the frame rate? Meaning you could do ProRes 422HQ at 60 fps, and 422 at 120, and LT at 200? At least then the on-set workflow and procedures are simpler. The editor can quickly render the LT into 422HQ, or whatever. But at least all the proxy footage is guaranteed to be there.
Not sure if Red is taking suggestions at this point. It kinda seems like they have told us how it's going to be. But that would be my suggestion.
Cheers,
Harry
 
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Harry Clark said:
The more annoying thing to me is the highspeed limitations. For me, the r3d is the master. It's the whole reason for choosing Red. But the client or editor also always wants ProRes. The fact that some of what I shoot will have a perfect (lower res) ProRes copy, and some WON'T, is really kludgey.
What if I'm shooting some stuff at 200 fps and some stuff at 60 fps? Only the 60 fps will have a ProRes proxy. I guess I could put all the 200 fps stuff on one card, and render it all out with my Red Rocket that no client wants to pay for. But BOOOYYYYYYY that seems like another route to the "Red is complicated" conversation I always seem to have to get into...
What if the ProRes size or file type was the limiting factor, and not the frame rate? Meaning you could do ProRes 422HQ at 60 fps, and 422 at 120, and LT at 200? At least then the on-set workflow and procedures are simpler. The editor can quickly render the LT into 422HQ, or whatever. But at least all the proxy footage is guaranteed to be there.
Not sure if Red is taking suggestions at this point. It kinda seems like they have told us how it's going to be. Bu that would be my suggestion.
Click to expand...

RED is always taking suggestions. Where the ProRes features we know of today make a lot of sense are for 1-60fps on Weapon MG and 1-120 on Weapon CF. Which is simple enough for me to manage in my tiny human brain :)

I think particularly where this is useful is the 4K and 4K+ productions where 120fps is currently the top frame rate on the Dragon sensor (approximately).

I can think of a lot of directions to go from here in terms of features and menu options. We'll know more once Weapon is closer to "being born", but I'm damn sure RED is working hard on this and a million other feature requests sent over.
 
I'm on a hunt for a higher end camera either Weapon or an Alexa Mini. After running through all the options, the Mini is only marginally more expensive than the Weapon. If I bought a Dragon (even used) right now and then upgraded to Weapon, it would be a fair bit more expensive than the Alexa Mini.

So that means the competition just got a bit tighter for Red because Alexa's were not affordable until now.

For me, Pro-Res is a very attractive option as the places I work for, even my better jobs, just prefer Pro-Res.

If Red can do a stand alone (non-tethered) 4K Pro-Res, even at only 60fps on the Magnesium Weapon, I think that would be a winning combo along with the RAW. I think many of the Alexa Pro-Res folks would definitely do a second take on the Red. But yeah, 4K 60fps is the sweet spot IMO.
 
I agree that RAW is the sweetest way to go. The reason I suggested the prores match the RAW file resolution is because I felt it would take less onboard processing power onboard to "pass through" the same frame size and not put processing power into scaling.

Even with prores in camera I still think many people won't be happy because there will be the limitations of prores.

I think H264 is a way more taxing codec to use than R3D, but still people bitch about r3d.

RAW is where it is at.
 
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I really hope they can at least get the frame rates better than 120. ideally 4K 240p / 6K @ 120p! but we can always dream..
 
David Battistella said:
I agree that RAW is the sweetest way to go. The reason I suggested the prores match the RAW file resolution is because I felt it would take less onboard processing power onboard to "pass through" the same frame size and not put processing power into scaling.

Even with prores in camera I still think many people won't be happy because there will be the limitations of prores.

I think H264 is a way more taxing codec to use than R3D, but still people bitch about r3d.

RAW is where it is at.
Click to expand...



The sweetest way to go, is the way that gets you hired the most and makes you the most money. More people are getting paid shooting Log Prores than Raw R3D... Both Codecs make great images.

A lot of people that I know are totally pissed at RED for all the hype created on this blog and at NAB about the Prores Meizler Module and the up and coming prores module that never happened. A lot of people bought Epics and Scarlets because of this false prores support that never materialized. These same people are selling or sold their cameras because Weapon doesn't fulfill any of the Prores needs or UHD needs. 60Fps...no UHD...big mistake. Right now the industry settles for RED if they can't get an Alexa. I bought a used Alexa last week and I have already made 5k back on the investment shooting 1920 log prores for Primetime TV. My Epic doesn't rent and I don't see a 6kWeapon renting over an 4k Alexa XT that can do 1920- 4k prores / UHD and Arriraw.
i wish they just created a prores module that could do 120fps a year ago. If they did that, they would of increased their ownership of Epics and they would of helped out their rep/relationship with producers. Its waaaaaay too early for 6k... way to early.
I feel like the Weapon line is helping sell Arri minis.
 
I tend to just wallflower these debates only to regurgitate what I read in face to face conversations.... but.... Here's the question to ask....

BM URsa mini = UHD pro res, also does 4k+ raw, maybe not simultaneously but it can write UHD to c-fast 2
Arri Mini = raw 3. Whatever it is, UHD prores to cfast

will weapon be writing 4K or UHD prores 444xq

Is the pRoblem redminimag bandwidth ? So add a cfast module that only eats prores
or better yet, a 2nd mini mag module just like we used to have with the side and the rear except this time when you add the extra mini mag you can write bigger better pro res

6k seems silly. Prores is a necessity because it's a standard and people want it for the reasons so eloquently explained in this thread by some folks here.

weapon will 100% need at a minimum UHD ProRes 444XQ. In this day and age why even write XQ if your master is at least double the raster? 2K is like a proxy size considering the size of your master in RED

RED seemed to beat their chest on being ahead of the industry curve on larger rasters.if the standard for acquisition is ProRes in many markets simply because the workflow is dialed in and not changing anytime soon... I would think UHD prores would be in the cards for weapon

especially if we are writing 8K masters?.. Having a 2K prores file that's in 444XQ? What's the point.

another way to look at this is to think about the way apple and FCP do proxy. Proxy is HALF.

I FEEL LIKE IM RAMBLING
sorry long day

basically... I'm holding my breath for UHD. Then I'll get my upgrade, and yes I'll even spring for CF although 8K is probably not in the cards long term.

if they can't get it together I'll probably sell out and get an Alexa mini as my next camera
 
Paul E. McCarthy said:
The sweetest way to go, is the way that gets you hired the most and makes you the most money. More people are getting paid shooting Log Prores than Raw R3D... Both Codecs make great images.
Click to expand...

i agree. Both cameras also make great images. It will come down to who people trust and what they feel good about and what they are used to.
 
I'll just add that for my projects Prores has never been a big missing link. I've never felt disadvantaged without Prores and when I have had the need for it, I've provided the Prores service when the production needed it. Even same day.

The thing is, every card from a red, Sony, arri, bmd, cion, Ursa, etc needs to hit a computer and some other hard drives for backup and verification. The r3d needs dedicated hardware to view and screen footage in high resolution. The other codecs use macs or pcs as their, dedicated hardware.

Prores is a codec with millions of pieces of dedicated hardware already in the world, R3D hardware is an add on and it not a minimal expense for any business.

Ive very often thought that if rocket cards or a red post box that attaches to any computer was sold a loss leader, then r3d might be more warmly received in some circles. Post matters and has a big say in aquisition. They need to be considered to as much as the camera department.

A camera sysytem is plopped into an ecosystem, if it forces that ecosystem to alter everything just for its purposes then it's likely not going to be as warmly received.

This is all said many people, including lowly Indy filmmakers (hand up), have been producing 4k masters on desktop systems for years from r3d masters without any pain in the ass.
 
I went for the Weapen 8K, prores 4K would do the job and eding a 4K out would make it the best camera for any job!

Can't wait for it!!

New films and new showreel on www.camlight.nl
 
David Battistella said:
Ive very often thought that if rocket cards or a red post box that attaches to any computer was sold a loss leader, then r3d might be more warmly received in some circles. Post matters and has a big say in aquisition. They need to be considered to as much as the camera department.

A camera system is plopped into an ecosystem, if it forces that ecosystem to alter everything just for its purposes then it's likely not going to be as warmly received.
Click to expand...

Amen brother.
I'm a huge Red fan but I don't always get to specify what camera I shoot with. Plus both my Dragons (and soon Weapons) live at a rental house at least part of the time, and make money on the whim of the market. It's a different world than 2007. Back when many of us first got involved and excited, the options for shooting electronically were limited, and Red had a huge advantage by offering a camera that did exactly what we wanted. Yes, it plopped into an established ecosystem, but because it was the only contender, folks bent over backwards to accommodate its quirks. In 2015, there are many, many choices at many, many price points. To stay at the top of the pyramid, Red has to offer a clear quality and feature advantage. I think the Weapon upgrade, by and large, is an incremental improvement, with many new "features" being things that were wrong or missing with the original Epic design. I'm doing it, of course, to stay in the game. But I only have so many dollars to go around... so while I will have two Weapons, I also have an Amira, perhaps the 4K Alexa, and a C300 Mark II. In 2016 and beyond, cameras that are not earning will be jettisoned (does anyone on this forum want to by a lightly used Sony F55?)
Sorry, rambling. But I REALLY hope Red is listening. In the future market of camera gear, Red has to be as generous and flexible as possible with its feature set, or it will get run over by Arri and others. It's like Paul said- the right camera choice is the one that gets you on the most jobs and makes you the most money. I'm no spring chicken, I have kids to send to college, my wife and I have plans and dreams, time marches on, and you don't get a do-over.
Cheers,
Harry
 
This is why I thought Weapon was going to be more a camera for all markets and less aimed at the top percentile of the business. The sort of swiss army knife, a camera that would satisfy the needs of many layers of production and the Weapon would eliminate choices. It with 4K prores 1-120 (even prores only record mode) which might make it possible would check off a lot of lists.

The reason I even suggested the 6K proves is the very reason I think it would put RED above the crowd. Because you could get all the benefits of reframing, etc. Instead of splitting features and product lines and creating a "my model is better than your model" mentality it would have been nice to see ONE Weapon for everyone, in any situation. I know that others cut up their product line, but why follow that model? Probably because it works.

Anyhow. You make some salient points and the landscape has changed substantially.
 
David, I think you and I are very much on the same page. I think 6K ProRes would be a fantastic feature, and anything that (as you say) puts Red above the crowd is a welcome idea. And splitting the lines is confusing at best, I agree.
Cheers,
Harry
 
Lot of good points all around. Weapon with the vague nod to 'paupers' with the lesser chip MG model, sees Red pulling away from the everyman model and by suiting up with 8K and Forged Carbon option definitely going Louis Vuitton and Bugatti direction. Which might be their best bet to differentiate. Ya know. Play the Leica, Panerei game with the camera.

Pragmatically though, as has been mentioned. Many Weapon features are fixes that should have been addressed previously on Epic. The ProRes should have happened already. And what the shortfall did is effectively lose market share. 6K and the clarity and reframe possibilities with that has not converted many.

The Dragon is a great camera given the chance. ISO, blackshade for shutter changes, heat the sensor, watch exposure etc treated honestly and respectfully - you get superb images. But DPs and Directors have other things on their minds on set and simple 'just works' gets them every time. They could care less how easy I think R3D is to use if they want ProRez. In fact high maintenance cameras that need you to be glued to Reduser for the latest insights and explanations - makes people annoyed. Expletives fly.

My guess is that the loyal will stay loyal. Even while they bleed:) Weapon will make incremental image improvements and one prays 8K will be CMOS artifact free. The Scarlet dream is over and those folks are gonna be Ursa and C300M2 by the boatload. A lot of renters will get Arri Minis because you know there will be the demand.

And the Red band of brothers will march on. Hopefully with at least 4KUHD pro rez because it is way past time and they deserve it.
 
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