Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

ProRes and Weapon

Tarquin Cardona said:
Lot of good points all around. Weapon with the vague nod to 'paupers' with the lesser chip MG model, sees Red pulling away from the everyman model and by suiting up with 8K and Forged Carbon option definitely going Louis Vuitton and Bugatti direction. Which might be their best bet to differentiate. Ya know. Play the Leica, Panerei game with the camera.
Click to expand...

If that is the case, to me that is not being at war with conventional thinking. That is fashion, that is trend and that is not about democrotizing anything.

The cameras make great images. This is a fact.
 
Yes. It is a fact that Dragon can produce great images in the right hands. I agree with you re pushing the envelope on the Pro Rez btw. But you have to admit that to the industry the 8K forged carbon weapon does feel like it is NOT about democracy - and that is stated mildly. It feel like Red has decided to niche higher end which makes sense in my view as the brand feels more esoteric and less plug and play. It think they have the bandwidth to make fewer high end tools as opposed to trying to out Canon - Canon as an example. Know thyself - trumps conventional or unconventional thinking:)
 
Very good points Tarquin. I agree, I think if RED was going to go that direction they would have with 3K for 3K when the Scarlet was initially announced. It was a very prudent move to put the 2 cameras in the same bodies with lesser hardware components to differentiate them. Still, as when AVID put out MC express (anyone remember that fiasco) I thought it was always a bit of a drag to have handcuffed machines. FCP X is 299 and anyone in the world can use it with whatever hardware they want and add the plugins etc as needed.

Same with RED, could have had a WEAPON "normal" and WEAPON "lightweight" for those that need to have the weight and then add accessories as needed. Same hardware for everyone and no software handcuffing. Clearly, they had to move a new direction, but it seems the ALEXA MINI might end up in more hands. People (in a certain market segment and maybe not their most loyal customers) love the form factor of WEAPON but might be more still be loyal to ARRI and proves or ARRIRAW.

I'm sure huge films will be shot on Weapon as will great films with the whole product line right back down to the RED ONE which is still making amazing images for people.
 
i hope Red wont sink into the huge flood of media the mini mag will have to deal with. For me, Prores is oldschool. I stopped fighting with alexa's boy who do not see anything else. What i see is the price of the mini mag, the price of hard disk, the price in power for managing all the data. 4 K prores ? Too heavy and too expensive to manage. And, maybe the worse for Red, possibly a lot of problem in recording twice the data and the loss of confidence if that happens once or twice on a shoot. It is dangerous and stressfull to push so many data in ssd.
 
Manager at my favorite Los Angeles rental house sees the demand and hears the thoughts of many people, and talks with a lot of Red owner/ operators.
This week he asked me what I thought of the Weapon upgrade. I told him and he just started nodding.
His words: the VAST MAJORITY - ALMOST ALL of the Red owners that he has talked to, have placed deposits for Weapon only begrudgingly, largely to get the $5 "accessories" benefit offer, and the discount on 8K. There was a gun at peoples head to place a deposit quickly, or face an impossibly expensive upgrade scenario into the future. Almost all of these owner-ops that he's spoken to say that looking at switching from Red to cameras such as the Alexa Mini, rather than pay the balance they owe on the Weapon when delivery time comes. This is in Red's heartland - Los Angeles. His words: "Red reallly f@#$%d this upgrade up". Makes me sad, But I'm in the same position as all these others, after being with Red all along. Jarred posted that he was amazed at the number of deposits placed on CF Weapon, that it exceeded expectations. That situation was engineered by making CF the only viable upgrade path into the future.

We'll see what happens when Red start asking for balances to be paid and Dragons to be shipped back to Red for trade-in. I hope I'm wrong on all this, but I do trust what this rental manager hears and says more than any poll on Reduser.

On a side note, the rental house's Bomb Squad told him that the Weapon sensor is a "whole new sensor" - over 16 stops of DR, so it's worth the upgrade... WTF?
 
Mark,
I agree that the outcome of the upgrade path is somewhat engineered, but in Red's defense, I'm sure they ran the numbers and saw what it takes to keep the lights on, so to speak. They have offered the MG as a short-term cheaper option for the customer.
I will do the MG upgrade on both my cameras and wait and see. If 8K shooting is hot, I'll just buy a new CF. I'm not convinced that tons of people will give up favorite lenses for slightly higher res, but we shall see.
Cheers,
Harry
 
Mark Pugh said:
Manager at my favorite Los Angeles rental house sees the demand and hears the thoughts of many people, and talks with a lot of Red owner/ operators.
This week he asked me what I thought of the Weapon upgrade. I told him and he just started nodding.
His words: the VAST MAJORITY - ALMOST ALL of the Red owners that he has talked to, have placed deposits for Weapon only begrudgingly, largely to get the $5 "accessories" benefit offer, and the discount on 8K. There was a gun at peoples head to place a deposit quickly, or face an impossibly expensive upgrade scenario into the future. Almost all of these owner-ops that he's spoken to say that looking at switching from Red to cameras such as the Alexa Mini, rather than pay the balance they owe on the Weapon when delivery time comes. This is in Red's heartland - Los Angeles. His words: "Red reallly f@#$%d this upgrade up". Makes me sad, But I'm in the same position as all these others, after being with Red all along. Jarred posted that he was amazed at the number of deposits placed on CF Weapon, that it exceeded expectations. That situation was engineered by making CF the only viable upgrade path into the future.

We'll see what happens when Red start asking for balances to be paid and Dragons to be shipped back to Red for trade-in. I hope I'm wrong on all this, but I do trust what this rental manager hears and says more than any poll on Reduser.

On a side note, the rental house's Bomb Squad told him that the Weapon sensor is a "whole new sensor" - over 16 stops of DR, so it's worth the upgrade... WTF?
Click to expand...

Very interesting ground floor type information. But I wonder if this may turn into a booming market for those who didn't make the cutoff and are looking to find a way to buy in less expensively to the CF 8k from reservationists that want out?

And of course, opinions change. My own went from glum to glad after I found a way to go CF Weapon. But I never doubted I wanted the 8k sensor... just didn't think there was any way to get there.
 
I would think it would be good for the 8K folks if there are less of them out there no? My view is that Red will benefit from more rarified air. Later adopters will benefit as the tech is beta'ed, debugged, etc etc... The only bummer in all this is the negativity in the market. Hopefully that will ebb over time. The less expensive 8K option due to people bailing would be welcome however.....
 
Tarquin Cardona said:
I would think it would be good for the 8K folks if there are less of them out there no? My view is that Red will benefit from more rarified air. Later adopters will benefit as the tech is beta'ed, debugged, etc etc... The only bummer in all this is the negativity in the market. Hopefully that will ebb over time. The less expensive 8K option due to people bailing would be welcome however.....
Click to expand...

My thinking is different. I'm thinking the more 8k archived/mastered content there is available the sooner it will be adopted for exhibition.

I know, I know... some will say it will be decades before 8k is adopted. They are the same ones who said it would be decades before 4k was adopted.

But if I were a renter, I would agree with you the fewer 8k units out there the more mine would be in demand.
 
Elsie N said:
Very interesting ground floor type information. But I wonder if this may turn into a booming market for those who didn't make the cutoff and are looking to find a way to buy in less expensively to the CF 8k from reservationists that want out?
Click to expand...
Only when Red drop the prices.
Reservationist that drop out won't be paying the balance and taking delivery.
I'm not sure attitudes will swing back once the Alexa Mini starts shipping and everyone falls in love with it. I hope I'm wrong. We will see. But his survey of busy, working Red owners in LA is that the vast majority see themselves as terminally pissed. I hope folks at Red are hearing what I'm hearing, and thinking fast, because once these people are gone, they'll be gone.

I can't see how a shrinking Red owner base would leave the ones left better off.
 
Mark Pugh said:
But his survey of busy, working Red owners in LA is that the vast majority see themselves as terminally pissed. I hope folks at Red are hearing what I'm hearing, and thinking fast, because once these people are gone, they'll be gone.

I can't see how a shrinking Red owner base would leave the ones left better off.
Click to expand...

Your describing the LA scene, but do you think that spreads any father? It's a much more competitive scene so I guess people would be a bit more pissed. I don't think less users is what anyone wants.
 
I'm pretty sure that RED anticipated a fallout from this (well disguised) price hike- they are the best at marketing so they surely know the consequences.
I personally think it's an incredible feat to go from $17.5K camera to $75K camera line and get so many excited about it...
Truly amazing marketing IMO...
 
I get some of the negative emotions for sure. But want to confirm what I understand to be true.

During NAB when people started getting annoyed with this Weapon saga, Jarred was asked if the MG option would be upgradeable down the road to the guts of the CF and, from there a path to 8K - and he said there was - or would be. Maybe it would cost more - but maybe not as processes and market evolve per usual.

So for someone who wanted to make an incremental step to a new body with a few benefits the path is more in the 17K range. By including 5K of stuff with the MG package, and an additonal 5K AKS credit - the 17K basically moves an Epic Dragon owner over to an immediately useable new body type, auto blackshade, some pro rez etc... Then if down the road they want to go deeper there would be a path from MG to CF. I think for someone who is budget minded or leery this is a reasonable path to follow. Or to stay with the Dragon they have for now, and wait as there is no time limit on the deal for now.

Those who are most angry could be those who upgraded close to NAB and then were thrown by the price curve for the next step. Though I think the MG is nice step that is a bit higher than usual but not insane.

And just for the heck of it. I had to smile watching a video about getting the Alexa Mini ready for a shoot the other day. Watching as all this stuff was bolted onto the pretty little box until it was a mass of accessorization. So what the real cost to go shoot is an interestling question. Say what one wants about Red and heaven knows it is a history of Betatown - but the Dragon color and look has finally gotten real - and of all the companies Red has more experience in the DSMC game. The Weapon (I too do not love the name) is in my view a more mature system because they've been at it longer and with an attachable RV expander and cordless touch a way more slick little unit.
 
I don't know if I am in a minority. I probably am, but would like to give my opinion on this, after a month since the announcement.

I was one of those disappointed by the announcements for selfish reasons. I had upgraded to Dragon in September, and was asked 17.5 K for a camera that supposedly corrected some of my camera small issues and added some features that are nice, but not revolutionary like going from MX to Dragon. The revolution was happening at another place that, fair enough, Red was allowing me to play, provided I could afford 50K for it, which I cannot.

I'm probably in that small percentage of "owner operators", whose investment on Red was not demanded by my clients, but my own search for improvement and quality. I think many around the World, beyond the US, did something similar. The term "industry" is , at least here, at very early stages. With the content I produce with my Dragon, I try to show that quality can be produced locally . By using the Dragon, it makes clients and also local producers understand what is possible with current technology, as well as it frees themselves from the prejudice that the best tools are only available to the big giants. Me having a Red Camera producing independent content or 100% local produced international commercial content definitely inspired others to invest in Red equipment here, as well as to support more local productions. But the payback is not monetary, in my case. As well as my content is received it just serves to pay the bills. The Dragon upgrade was a big investment, and another 17K months after the Dragon for the improvements of Weapon just don't feel worth it, specially since "the" upgrade is 50K up the ladder, and Jarred confirming it would "cost more" to go the Magnesium route.

But lets put this in a non selfish perspective: when I went Epic, I had to pay 35K for it. Those entering the Weapon Bandwagon are paying similar pricesfor the Magnesium. Maybe a new generation of Red owners that felt exactly like I did will benefit from this new cycle. The Epic MX and Dragon have really changed my work forever, and also local content creation. Probably its time for another one as "crazy" as I was back then to come in and do it again, and push things even more forward!
 
Elsie N said:
My thinking is different. I'm thinking the more 8k archived/mastered content there is available the sooner it will be adopted for exhibition.

I know, I know... some will say it will be decades before 8k is adopted. They are the same ones who said it would be decades before 4k was adopted.

But if I were a renter, I would agree with you the fewer 8k units out there the more mine would be in demand.
Click to expand...

4K screens have a very low adoption rate, and 4K content is… Where?

4K finishing is still rare. I have yet to hear of anyone finishing a TVC in 4K. People debate about whether you can see any resolution difference at comfortable viewing distances (Imax theaters have you sitting closer, and Imax content is framed differently, so they are an exception) between 1080p and 4K - let's say that consensus is that you can see some, on some but not all shots, and it's subtle.

Between 4K and 8K it is quite certain you can see none whatsoever, except in Imax, and even there in the closer half of the rows.

That said a Dragon sensor with all the artifacts fixed and good low light performance is worth gold, and to me that is the real benefit of Weapon.
 
David Battistella said:
Your describing the LA scene, but do you think that spreads any father? It's a much more competitive scene so I guess people would be a bit more pissed. I don't think less users is what anyone wants.
Click to expand...

It's what I want. Too much supply means rental prices plummet. Call me a jerk but I like to make money off my investments.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
4K screens have a very low adoption rate, and 4K content is… Where?

4K finishing is still rare. I have yet to hear of anyone finishing a TVC in 4K. People debate about whether you can see any resolution difference at comfortable viewing distances (Imax theaters have you sitting closer, and Imax content is framed differently, so they are an exception) between 1080p and 4K - let's say that consensus is that you can see some, on some but not all shots, and it's subtle.

Between 4K and 8K it is quite certain you can see none whatsoever, except in Imax, and even there in the closer half of the rows.

That said a Dragon sensor with all the artifacts fixed and good low light performance is worth gold, and to me that is the real benefit of Weapon.
Click to expand...
I have a 4k screen... my brother who swore he couldn't see the difference now has a 4k screen. Go Pro is shooting 4k.. You Tube is exhibiting 4k... 4k etc, etc, etc,

Robert, you are not going to instill remorse in me for going Weapon 8k. '-)

Like you pointed out in an earlier post between us in another thread, we all shoot differently.
 
Last edited:
Eu Don't retire this thread. It suffered a derail but it has fantastic info and debate from Jeff and Bruce, two of the best posters here in reduser. Lets get it back on topic!

I love editing in prores. But with a rocket X or with newer, more powerful gpus, i fail to see why capturing it today is as important as, say , 2 years ago for producers/clients?

I work in a very stressed scenario (motorsport coverage and race weekend highlights for its prize ceremony), and today's redraw workflow with a rocket is fast and completely doable. We are even all "macintosh' so its not even the fastest workflow, but we get much faster than realtime convertion of files to prores- again, great for editing- while keeping pristine future proof redcode raw...

I was one of those that tried to push for a prores module from 2012-2014 (Epic MX days) and literaly every single year things have gotten better for red workflow. Now I think, even at 6K in a Macbookpro Retina 2012 with rocket x and a fast thunderbolt raid, it cuts like butter. (FCPX here with Adobe Creative suite for everything else).

I think the zeithgeist of our industry is still stuck in 2012. That is probably the biggest battle we need to fight with clients about.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top