ProLine Film Gimbal co-developed by me :)

[David Kellermann]

It's hard to pay a non-refundable deposit on a product I've never seen before. Otherwise, it sounds good.

Yes, but you wouldn't otherwise get a 50% discount. Also, given that ProLine and MYT, which are already well introduced, are working on it, you can be sure that the quality is top-notch.

 

[David Kellermann]

All packages include a vest and arm? Any thoughts on a product offering at some point for potential customers that already own a camera stabilization rig?

Just asking :wink5:

Since the web-shop is nearly done, we could maybe also offer the items separately...

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Love the idea and the partners you've got working behind this David.

However, my 2 cents:

I'm not sure how many people will invest $15K (or even $7.5K for the pre-orders) for a "concept". Most would want to see a picture or a prototype or at the very least a 3D image of the final product concept. You are promising to provide videos using the device but without actual pictures of the unit (until Dec). I understand you're being careful and want to protect your investment, but owner/operators watch their money very carefully and invest in what the clients want, and other than this thread nobody has heard about this initiative (no social media buzz, nothing). Also, just because two recognizable names are in partnership doesn't necessarily mean it will be a successful collaboration. As far as I know, MYTworks is not known for any gymbal control related products, so this would be a first for them.

Having said that, I'm really looking forward to what you guys have come up with and wish you the very best success.

 

[David Kellermann]

Love the idea and the partners you've got working behind this David.

However, my 2 cents:

I'm not sure how many people will invest $15K (or even $7.5K for the pre-orders) for a "concept". Most would want to see a picture or a prototype or at the very least a 3D image of the final product concept. You are promising to provide videos using the device but without actual pictures of the unit (until Dec). I understand you're being careful and want to protect your investment, but owner/operators watch their money very carefully and invest in what the clients want, and other than this thread nobody has heard about this initiative (no social media buzz, nothing). Also, just because two recognizable names are in partnership doesn't necessarily mean it will be a successful collaboration. As far as I know, MYTworks is not known for any gymbal control related products, so this would be a first for them.

Having said that, I'm really looking forward to what you guys have come up with and wish you the very best success.

As stated, we're showing pictures and videos of it in November and photos of the final version will be out in December. Afaik there aren't any photos of the BeSteady4, or are there?

Also, you don't have to get into the group buy... you can still get a 25% discount when photos of the rig are already published. Also, how many people have heard of the Nettmann System MiniMote? Still it's a great system We're not going for a publicity stunt, but for a great product with future upgrades and support for the next years.

 

[Carey Lee Coffey]

As stated, we're showing pictures and videos of it in November and photos of the final version will be out in December. Afaik there aren't any photos of the BeSteady4, or are there?

Also, you don't have to get into the group buy... you can still get a 25% discount when photos of the rig are already published. Also, how many people have heard of the Nettmann System MiniMote? Still it's a great system We're not going for a publicity stunt, but for a great product with future upgrades and support for the next years.

Here's what I propose:

Offer a refundable deposit for the group-buy. Then when Nov.-Dec. comes, and we are able to actually see the product, and as you are getting closer to launching, you can set a deadline for when existing deposits will become non-refundable. If you truly believe in your product, you should feel confident enough to offer a refundable deposit. It's just good business.

Yes, there aren't any photos of the BS4 yet, but there is a working little brother to the BS4, the BS1, and there's tons of information about the product and renders that show what it will look like.

 

[David Kellermann]

Here's what I propose:

Offer a refundable deposit for the group-buy. Then when Nov.-Dec. comes, and we are able to actually see the product, and as you are getting closer to launching, you can set a deadline for when existing deposits will become non-refundable. If you truly believe in your product, you should feel confident enough to offer a refundable deposit. It's just good business.

Yes, there aren't any photos of the BS4 yet, but there is a working little brother to the BS4, the BS1, and there's tons of information about the product and renders that show what it will look like.

I feel confident about it, but it's kinda hard to get the bank into believing in it without having any real estate that you can use as security. That's the way it unfortunately works in Germany.

Also, just 25% of the discounted price in not refundable. The rest is. And, most of all, we need the security to get this price. Other companies are pricing their products, knowing that many people could get a refund, to still make a profit. That's not how we are doing it. We try to give you the best price possible.

 

[Andy White]

David, just an idea.

I see you're offering a a good deal (50%) discount and a are looking to lock in 25% of that as a non-refundable deposit... essentially replacing the Bank and using this as a funding source (presumably to pay for COGs).

However, a non refundable deposit locks people in... if they end up not wanting the product, they have to either find someone to sell the place in line to... or they could loose the deposit entirely.

Also, a lot of things can happen (I speak from experience here) that can be unforeseen - especially with lots of B2B dealings... not that I am saying they will, but not all things can be controlled.

However, why not offer a slightly modified version of the deal... make the deposit refundable - but put a window on this. Basically, if you pre-order and then want a refund, the caveat is you have to wait until Jan 2014 for any refund to be processed.

This way, you are still generating the funding for COGs and, by the time you have to refund any deposits (Jan 2014), you will be full scale into larger volume production (if all goes well!) so, at that point, your cashflow can then sustain the refund.

Really just looking at this from a business point of view & I like what you're putting together

 

[David Kellermann]

David, just an idea.

I see you're offering a a good deal (50%) discount and a are looking to lock in 25% of that as a non-refundable deposit... essentially replacing the Bank and using this as a funding source (presumably to pay for COGs).

However, a non refundable deposit locks people in... if they end up not wanting the product, they have to either find someone to sell the place in line to... or they could loose the deposit entirely.

Also, a lot of things can happen (I speak from experience here) that can be unforeseen - especially with lots of B2B dealings... not that I am saying they will, but not all things can be controlled.

However, why not offer a slightly modified version of the deal... make the deposit refundable - but put a window on this. Basically, if you pre-order and then want a refund, the caveat is you have to wait until Jan 2014 for any refund to be processed.

This way, you are still generating the funding for COGs and, by the time you have to refund any deposits (Jan 2014), you will be full scale into larger volume production (if all goes well!) so, at that point, your cashflow can then sustain the refund.

Really just looking at this from a business point of view & I like what you're putting together

Andy, thank you for the idea. Now that you wrote it, it seems pretty obvious Yes, we can do that. So as an update: deposits are refundable in February 2014!

 

[Andy White]

Andy, thank you for the idea. Now that you wrote it, it seems pretty obvious Yes, we can do that. So as an update: deposits are refundable in February 2014!

Cool... really glad to help

I've done quite a bit of fund raising and business in my time (can always talk privately on that as NDA's limit a lot of what I've done)... but, I saw what you needed and why... and the most logical answer was my suggestion. You've moved it by a month... but that's related to your inside knowledge of you production pipeline.

Now the deal on page 1 will be a LOT more favorable to people!

 

[James Peach]

I've been wondering for the last weeks how I should design the pricing structure of the gimbal. Since a lot of research and development, not only of ProLine and me, but also of MYT Works, some programers and several specialized lawyers, goes into it, we have to figure out the amount of rigs we can sell at different prices. Given this amount, we can distribute the research & development and other fixed costs. While of course calculating with some error margin, Luciano and I don't get any profit out of it, as long as we don't sell more than ~ 100 units, depending of course on how many rigs are being sold in which phase. What we get, of course, is an amazing system that we can later sell at a regular price, finally making some money out of it.

Also, we have to use 25% deposits which are not refundable until February 2014 to somehow limit our risks.

Anyway... what do you think about this structure:

Package price is 15.000USD. Included are:

* Gimbal
* Iso-elastic steadicam arm and vest
* MYT nodal head based remote control
* Custom AlexMos board
* Maximum camera weight 20lbs

Phase I - October 1st until October 31st: Group Buy

50% discount
Minimum are 60 orders
Deadline is October 31st
Shipment ~ January 10th

We will show in that time-frame footage which was shot with our prototypes, but will not show any photos of the gimbal or the control system itself, since we don't want that others copy our system before we even ship it.

November 1st until December 14th: pre-order I

25% discount (50 available)
We will test with some redusers in that time nearly finished prototypes and will publish photos and videos of the system
Shipment ~ February 1st

December 15th until shipment of the first finished rigs: pre-order II

15% discount
We will show in December the final version of the whole system. Also everyone can come over to ProLine in LA or to me in Germany (or to any of the other testers) to try it out.
Shipment ~ March 1st (depends on the amount of orders)

What do you think?

Is 15k before 50% off then 25% deposits on $7500?

With the Iso-elastic steadicam arm and vest will we be able to go back to a reg steadicam gimbal?

And who in the us will give support?

 

[David Kellermann]

Is 15k before 50% off then 25% deposits on $7500?

With the Iso-elastic steadicam arm and vest will we be able to go back to a reg steadicam gimbal?

And who in the us will give support?

Yes, the 25% deposit is on the final price. In case of the group buy the deposit is 1875USD.

You could also buy a steadicam sled extra to get a full steadicam system.

Support in the America (and Asia) will be by ProLine. Support in Europe will be by a better TRUTH.

 

[James Peach]

Yes, the 25% deposit is on the final price. In case of the group buy the deposit is 1875USD.

You could also buy a steadicam sled extra to get a full steadicam system.

Support in the America (and Asia) will be by ProLine. Support in Europe will be by a better TRUTH.

Thanks sounds good.
I hope we can use paypal.

 

[David Kellermann]

Thanks sounds good.
I hope we can use paypal.

Definitively. I'm working right now on setting up a webshop where you can order the required package or single items. You'll be able to use paypal, credit cards or wire transfer.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

David,
If someone doesn't need the Iso-elastic steadicam arm and vest?
ie for people who don't use steadicam. Is there any option?

It is a good idea to have the deposit refundable, even though the refund is processed a couple of months later.

You can plan a kickstarter in November when the prototypes are ready. That will also help you in getting greater traction and a group of customers who are not limited to reduser (even though reduser has got a huge number of people). I see lot of people stumbling on the group buy threads after those have been closed.

15k is lot of money. At the moment that psychological benchmark price limit is occupied by MoVI.

If price is lower, there would be more impulse buy. So it would be better to offer a few versions of the package. the basic gimbal, gimbal + X, gimbal + X+Y etc etc
Even 50% discount becomes too high for impulse purchase because one has to dish out 7500 usd towards the price of the total unit. Since multiple suppliers are involved and it is now in the planning stage, I think better to take your time to think all the variables and then decide on the price. May be that will help you have a better estimation of the price at which you can offer.

 

[David Kellermann]

David,
If someone doesn't need the Iso-elastic steadicam arm and vest?
ie for people who don't use steadicam. Is there any option?

It is a good idea to have the deposit refundable, even though the refund is processed a couple of months later.

You can plan a kickstarter in November when the prototypes are ready. That will also help you in getting greater traction and a group of customers who are not limited to reduser (even though reduser has got a huge number of people). I see lot of people stumbling on the group buy threads after those have been closed.

15k is lot of money. At the moment that psychological benchmark price limit is occupied by MoVI.

If price is lower, there would be more impulse buy. So it would be better to offer a few versions of the package. the basic gimbal, gimbal + X, gimbal + X+Y etc etc
Even 50% discount becomes too high for impulse purchase because one has to dish out 7500 usd towards the price of the total unit. Since multiple suppliers are involved and it is now in the planning stage, I think better to take your time to think all the variables and then decide on the price. May be that will help you have a better estimation of the price at which you can offer.

As stated earlier somewhere on this thread, there will be the option to buy items separately. But to get the highest discount, you need to get the whole package. The gimbal will have a price of roughly 5000USD in the group buy, including Lemo connectors, cables, battery plates etc.

 

[David Kellermann]

Some updates:

So why should you get our system, other than getting a turnkey solution:

Gimbal

• up to 20lbs camera weight
• adjustability like on a steadicam for quick balancing on set
• carbon, 7075 aluminum and titanium to grantee a robust built
• LEMO power distribution for a wide range of cameras and accessories (wireless video, remote focus etc.)
• LiPo and V-mount / AB-mount batteries mounts
• quick release systems to change the gimbal quickly from aerial to handheld to steadicam and other modes
• many mounting points (3/8" & 1/4")
• Alexmos ARM boards
• Maxon motors
• usable as a remote head on a jib etc.
• iso-elasitc steadicam arm and vest included in the full package

Remote controller

• "Pan Bar" design (reference photo)
• based on MYT Works Satin head
• works with PPM and s.bus (MoVI, BeSteady etc.)
• usable also as a standard nodal head
• V-mount / AB-mount and other industry standard batteries mounts
• integration of RTmotions wireless follow focus system (finger wheel)

I've been wondering for the last weeks how I should design the pricing structure of the gimbal. Since a lot of research and development, not only of ProLine and me, but also of MYT Works, some programers and several specialized lawyers, goes into it, we have to figure out the amount of rigs we can sell at different prices. The deposits are refundable.

Anyway... what do you think about this structure. You will of course also be able to buy the items separately.

The regular package price is 14.500USD:

• Gimbal (6600USD)
• Iso-elastic steadicam arm and vest (3600USD)
• MYT nodal head based remote control (4500USD)
• All needed electronics

Phase I - October 1st until October 31st: Group Buy

50% discount
Minimum are 60 orders (gimbal, remote controller or whole package)
Deadline is October 31st
Shipment ~ January 10th

We will show in that time-frame footage which was shot with our prototypes, but will not show any photos of the gimbal or the control system itself, since we don't want that others copy our system before we even ship it.

November 1st until December 14th: pre-order I

25% discount (50 available)
We will test with some redusers (and if interested Freefly user) in that time nearly finished prototypes and will publish photos and videos of the system
Shipment ~ February 1st

December 15th until shipment of the first finished rigs: pre-order II

15% discount
We will show in December the final version of the whole system. Also everyone can come over to ProLine in LA or to me in Germany (or to any of the other testers) to try it out.
Shipment ~ March 1st (depends on the amount of orders)

Again, the prices are not yet fixed, since some things could change. So, what do you think?

Cheers

David

 

[Max M.]

Hi David,

I would be interested for sure but for example would not be interested in the nodal head at this price, a simple joystick controller would work fine for me first. This would take off a big part of the price, making it much more interesting for me. I think the full system price is to high for an unseen system. Why not just give a 3 choice option for Phase I? Gimbal + simple controller , gimbal + simple controller + steadicam system, gimbal system+ steadicam system + nodal head controller.

And then adjust the percentage of discount: 50% for full system, 45% for half, and 40% for only the gimbal. I think that would work better, and a lot of users would like that

 

[Dominik Novotny]

If I get it right, I can just buy the gimbal and the remote controller and get also the 50% discount, right? As I already own a steadicam system the vest and arm are not important for me. I like the design of the remote controller and the maxon motors. Are these direct drive motors or do they use gears?

Best,
Dominik

 

[Steve Das]

And then adjust the percentage of discount: 50% for full system, 45% for half, and 40% for only the gimbal. I think that would work better, and a lot of users would like that

That seems abit off..it seems like penalizing people just because they don't want to duplicate their existing gear.

 

[David Kellermann]

Hi David,

I would be interested for sure but for example would not be interested in the nodal head at this price, a simple joystick controller would work fine for me first. This would take off a big part of the price, making it much more interesting for me. I think the full system price is to high for an unseen system. Why not just give a 3 choice option for Phase I? Gimbal + simple controller , gimbal + simple controller + steadicam system, gimbal system+ steadicam system + nodal head controller.

And then adjust the percentage of discount: 50% for full system, 45% for half, and 40% for only the gimbal. I think that would work better, and a lot of users would like that

We will not be offering a joystick initially, because I do not believe that they are the way to go to control the gimbal. Anyway, we will add them probably in January or February, if people really request it. Regular RC controls will of course also work with the gimbal.

You can of course buy all the items separatly, also smaller items like the wooden handgripsthe power distribution and so on. The discount will stay the same, but the single items prices will be slightly higher than the package. So if you buy all the items separatly, you would probably end up paying 5% more.