Professional XLR attachment

[Johan Malmsten]

the red guys promised 2 channel audio... I haven't read anything that it would actually include a stereo mic... except the soccer-mom-statement...

 

[kmikami]

For shooting things like plays or musical performances in smallish (like school) theaters, you want good sound to be recorded BY THE CAMERA on its media

Why? Because you have to leave a tape in the client's hands when you leave? You're not really going to be doing that with Scarlet anyway. If you're mixing it after the fact anyway, then why not just use something like one of these?

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=960&ParentId=114
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=757&ParentId=114
http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1901
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrackII-main.html
http://www.edirol.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=313&Itemid=390
http://www.edirol.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=56&Itemid=390

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Why? Because you have to leave a tape in the client's hands when you leave? You're not really going to be doing that with Scarlet anyway

Based on what exactly? How do you know that we don't need to give footage to the clients directly?

I really think it's extremely bad to not be able to record onto the footage media because it's a major difference between shooting on film and digital media. It should not be hard to accomplish it either, so I don't see where the problem is exactly. I have no doubts that Red will put quality inputs on the camera because anything else is like being worse then my DVX100.

And of course, built in mic can be good, but you'll never use it. Even documentaries doesn't use it and if a mic on the camera is used, it's often a better mic that is mounted on the camera with a cable to the input.
I see that many here hasn't worked with sound as much as the image.
If your going to make a film, then it's quite necessary to record sound onto the footage media.
To edit the movie together with the sound is the most important thing when creating a smooth post-production.

 

[kmikami]

Based on what exactly? How do you know that we don't need to give footage to the clients directly?

I didn't say you don't need to. I said that you're not going to be doing that with Scarlet. If you're shooting events and the client wants a tape in their hands at the end of the night, Scarlet won't cut it anyway. What are you going to do, hand them a bunch of CF cards in Redcode RAW?

I really think it's extremely bad to not be able to record onto the footage media because it's a major difference between shooting on film and digital media. It should not be hard to accomplish it either, so I don't see where the problem is exactly.

There is no problem. Red has already confirmed that Scarlet will record two channels of audio. I just think some people are expecting a little too much in that department.

I see that many here hasn't worked with sound as much as the image.
If your going to make a film, then it's quite necessary to record sound onto the footage media.

Actually, while I'm not a video pro I have made several short films. Not only was it not necessary to record sound onto the film, it wasn't even possible. :biggrin: I never tried super 8 sound though.

The great advantage of digital is not that audio is bundled with the picture but that syncing is trivial compared to analog.

 

[Mark A. Beal]

Actually, while I'm not a video pro I have made several short films.

I am a video pro and I am rarely in a situation where double system is an option. Even in the high end world, you'll find many productions recording sound on tape.

 

[kmikami]

And the absence of an XLR connection is a dealbreaker? Is that only because it might get pulled out, in which case another type of locking connector might do? Or is it just the perceived "professionalism" that some people seem to attach to the XLR?

 

[kmikami]

It's not that I doubt your guys experience, I just obviously don't understand your workflow. I'm confused about what type of situation you're talking about where double system sound is unworkable but dealing with RAW ungraded files and 3k footage isn't.

 

[Mark A. Beal]

And the absence of an XLR connection is a dealbreaker?

The absence of XLR connectors isn't a dealbreaker. I can understand the need for some smaller input to accomodate the limited real estate. However, the idea of trying to shoot double system sync is simply unrealistic for the most professional situations.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

XLR can have the ability to power a mic and that is important when you use a mounted good mic onto the camera.

I own a Neuman KM185 which is a very good mic, but it must be fed with power and yes, I can use an external mixer with output into the camera, but if Scarlet is run and gun, it's good to feed power to the mic when mounted on it.

I don't find it odd to have two XLR inputs in a professional camera, it's the best mic-connection I know of. I gladly trade a bad built in mic for good XLR connections (2). The bit and Hkz might be something we can get in a later update so that might not be important now...

 

[Barry Green]

However, the idea of trying to shoot double system sync is simply unrealistic for the most professional situations.

But (and this is a massive "but") Scarlet is not a professional VIDEO camera. It's a professional Digital Cinema camera.

It remains to be seen as to whether concessions will be made to the product to accomodate the needs of video shooters. But Red has never (as far as I know) claimed that the Scarlet is suitable for use on video shoots (unless I missed something Ted said somewhere?)

A Red One is not, in any way, a "video" camera, and it's possible that the Scarlet may not be as well. Is there any evidence pointing to the idea that the Scarlet is being designed to be used on professional video shoots? The "full auto" mode hints at that, but I could just as easily argue that "full auto" exists for crash-cam type scenarios where a fully-manual operation mode might not get the job done, yet still falls squarely in the realm of digital cinema.

(and yes, we all know that just about any product can be pressed into any type of service... 30 years ago I once transported home a weight bench strapped to the back of a mo-ped. News used to be shot on film, etc. Anything CAN be done, but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about what the product is designed to do and who it is going to be marketed to).

 

[edoates]

Why? Because you have to leave a tape in the client's hands when you leave? You're not really going to be doing that with Scarlet anyway. If you're mixing it after the fact anyway, then why not just use something like one of these?

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=960&ParentId=114
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=757&ParentId=114
http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1901
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrackII-main.html
http://www.edirol.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=313&Itemid=390
http://www.edirol.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=56&Itemid=390

I have tons of digital recording stuff already: ProTools 002 Rack, etc. If I get the sound in another format from the Video, there is drop frame to worry about (automatic, but yet another step), another operator (to run whatever sound thingy I'm using instead of the camera: someone has to push "record" and "stop" at the right times). And since DV records 16 bit at 48kHz, unless I want 24 bit (what, for a school play?), that's better than CD already, so the camera is a good place to record the video.

Now, I'll agree, if the school theater had a good sound tech instead of a student, and a good board (actually they do, but they have only learned to use it for sound reinforcement (SR) so far), then I could set up my Digi002 with a Mac and ProTools and dump 8 tracks of audio into it, including the theater's "stereo" SR mix. But that still means that someone is there in the booth pressing "record" and record enabling the right tracks, etc. If I were a PRO and being paid for this, I'd just hire someone and charge it back. I'm not.

So I want at least one of my cameras to have the sound on tape with the video. It sure makes syncing up easy!

Eddie O

 

[kmikami]

XLR can have the ability to power a mic and that is important when you use a mounted good mic onto the camera.

Uh, sorry to break it to you but the phantom power doesn't come from the XLR connector. :wink: You can send phantom power through a 1/4" trs just fine.

 

[Mark A. Beal]

But (and this is a massive "but") Scarlet is not a professional VIDEO camera. It's a professional Digital Cinema camera.

It remains to be seen as to whether concessions will be made to the product to accomodate the needs of video shooters. But Red has never (as far as I know) claimed that the Scarlet is suitable for use on video shoots (unless I missed something Ted said somewhere?)

But even in digital cinema many people are shooting sound on tape. I personally would buy the Scarlet even if it had NO sound, but I think that the market Red is aiming at with this camera demands audio capabilities comparable to the HVX/HD100/etc. range of cameras.

 

[josiahthiesen]

The idea of not being able to use XLR connections on the camera would honestly kind of make me reconsider buying it. I know it is an incredible camera, but maybe not work for my uses.

But I am certainly not the only person they are creating the camera for.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

We all need to look at what kind of camera this is.
I would actually say that this camera is more made for having on-board soundrecording then the Red One is. Red One is probably only used for filmmaking and television series, while Scarlet will be both for filmmaking, documentaries, tv-shows/series and even newsreporters.
It can also be used by people as a camera pure for their own person pleasure if they can afford it.

So, because Scarlet is more wide spread in it's uses and because documentaries demand audiorecording onto the footage, (sometimes there's no soundguy and you need to be able to watch over the levels while shooting, not to forget when you dig through all your material) I don't see how people can be at rest with an idea of no sound at all.
I already know that Red said there's sound inputs, but the attitude from some are a bit like "I can't say anything about this because then I'm complaining about the camera".

I will allmost guarantee that when you stand there with your scarlet, making your first scarlet motion picture and there is no good sound options on the camera you will definetely change your opinion in this matter.

These days any technology in media should have the shortest workflow possible and to have sound recorded in sync to the footage is a way to create material that is directly usable for screening or for clients to have.

Scarlet as a run n gun camera must have good audio because it's that kind of a camera compared to One and Epic.

Red has already created one of the fastest workflows of shooting and editing high quality footage and I don't have any doubt that Scarlet will work under good conditions. But audio with phantom feed to a mic is important because of Scarlet's properties and for what type of projects it's for. Sound on Scarlet is I think more important then for Red One.

 

[kmikami]

The idea of not being able to use XLR connections on the camera would honestly kind of make me reconsider buying it.

LOL. I honestly do not understand this obsession with XLRs and nobody has actually explained it yet in this thread. Some people seem to think it magically confers "professional" status and others seem to think the connector delivers phantom power. But I haven't seen a valid argument as to why XLR connectors are a dealbreaking requirement. Is it just so you don't have to use an adapter? You don't want to make or buy new cables? Is it just the fact that they lock? Why not use mini XLR or some kind of LEMO connector?

 

[Barry Green]

But even in digital cinema many people are shooting sound on tape. I personally would buy the Scarlet even if it had NO sound, but I think that the market Red is aiming at with this camera demands audio capabilities comparable to the HVX/HD100/etc. range of cameras.

I agree fully, and hope that it has good and proper audio support.

What I was questioning is whether (with audio or not) it'll be a fit and proper choice for doing video jobs. That's not who it's being marketed to, so it may still not be the right choice for that.

But yes, by all means I hope that it has, at bare minimum, DVX-level audio support. I am a tad concerned about that though since there was no obvious audio input system at all on the prototype at NAB, so I hope that they're taking audio concerns seriously and planning on building in some proper audio support.

 

[kmikami]

I don't see how people can be at rest with an idea of no sound at all.

But there is sound.

I will allmost guarantee that when you stand there with your scarlet, making your first scarlet motion picture and there is no good sound options on the camera you will definetely change your opinion in this matter.

Who said there are no good sound options? Why do you assume that?

These days any technology in media should have the shortest workflow possible and to have sound recorded in sync to the footage is a way to create material that is directly usable for screening or for clients to have.

Great, and Scarlet includes sync sound so you should be good to go. What's the issue?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I was adressing the attitude, not that it wont have audio...

Adressing this:

I personally would buy the Scarlet even if it had NO sound

But there's still the thing about XLR's and the ability to feed power (phantom) to an external mic. That thing is very important.

 

[Harrison Diamond]

kmikami, there IS a very big middle ground between what you suggest for the more 'serious' of us (external, expensive separate sound recording systems which take time, money, and people we might not have) and an onboard stereo mic built-in. For me, the lack of high quality audio input (be it 1/4" TRS or mini-XLR or standard XLR) would really hurt.

I like having multiple sound recording options, and most of the time shooting with Scarlet I don't anticipate having a particularly large crew. I might want a high grade shotgun in a run and gun situation, or run a lav from scarlet to an interview subject if I'm shooting it solo.