Premiere Pro CC or AVID Media Composer - advice needed

[Scott Brown]

Hi Folks

We're about to kiss good bye finally to FCP 7 and need to make a decision on what NLE we move to. Still love FCP 7 as we have worked with this for years and know it inside out!

Our primary market is broadcast TV, mostly for the BBC and we work on long form documentaries with large quantities of media. We will be working with a wide range of camera formats but have no requirement for 4K delivery, only 1080p.

We've discounted FCP X for now, and we are looking at either Premiere Pro CC or AVID Media Composer.

I have NO experience of AVID but I'm concerned about reports of issues with Premiere Pro when working with very large projects and also various other reports of long project load times, autosaves and audio issues.

Anyone care to chime in here and offer some thoughts or advice? I'm leaning towards AVID but I'm still open to persuasion )

Many thanks.

Best wishes

Scott

 

[Scott Brown]

Anyone?

We're starting a new tv series next week and need to make a decision pronto!

Reliability is my top priority, I'd prefer to run with Premiere Pro CC as we can work natively without transcodes BUT how reliable is it on large complex projects? Is AVID a safer bet and we use PP for short form corporate work along side FCP X

Scott

 

[Phil Holland]

Toughie as there's lots of answers to this question. My best advice is to try both out for a few hours. However, I will give you my heavily biased opinion.

I'm way, way into the Adobe ecosystem when it comes to .R3D workflow. Works natively nicely and is also getting updated often these days due to the CC model. I personally transcode to smaller proxies for really large projects, say over 15-30 minutes. That's more of a preference thing and I can also keep an entire project on a smaller portable drive to work abroad.

With a fairly decent system you can certainly work natively for various project sizes. Project load time has improved, but still is a factor if we're talking many clips. There's apparently some new developments on this front too, but disk speed and IO plays a role here.

For me it handles .R3Ds, allows me to jump around through After Effects or Speedgrade if desired without transcoding, and seems to get better with each new version.

 

[Scott Brown]

Hi Phil

Many thanks for your valuable input here, it's much appreciated.

What size of projects are you generally working with? Our first job in January is a 10 x 30' BBC series and we'll most likely be working with several TB's of data, do you think PP will struggle with this? Lengthy Autosaves or project loads will cause us grief.

I've tested PP on smaller projects (mostly RED) and really like it. For our TV projects we don't need any complex FX as the show's a basically just straight cuts - plan is to go out to Pro Tools for audio and then grade/finish and output from Resolve.

Best wishes

Scott

 

[Phil Holland]

Heh. I don't have a "typical" project it seems. At least not in the last two years. I've done a 4 hour weird one natively, but there were certainly some learning curves there. Last gig was shy of 12 minutes with quite a few cuts and 6K 2:1.

I do think and know much of this will depends largely on how you like to work and your workstation specs. If you are a "snappy" editor and lot's of Director interaction there's nothing but reasons to fire out some ProRes LTs and ingest those for a proxy driven workflow and re-linking. If you need lightning fast that's still the best way to work.

However, working natively is totally doable. Ever since GPU acceleration came to Redcine-X Pro, the Adobe CC Suite, and Resolve life has been fairly different for the better.

 

[Scott Brown]

Think it'll be very interesting to see how Resolve plays out as a potential editing tool - looking quite promising and BMD are moving lightening fast )

For RED native cutting, I do think PP currently the way to go as we can work natively if we choose to.

AVID - looks like while we can work natively via AMA, most editors seems to be converting to DNxHD as this is faster and more robust. Just ordered the 30 day trial so we'll jump in test the water.

Still miss FCP 7 though as it was such a simple and intuitive tool!

Scott

 

[Kalechi Noel]

Considering the BBC themselves recently converted their editing suites to FCPX ..... I'd strongly suggest it as well. Thats my weapon of choice hands down!! FCPX with the new MacPros with Red Footage... a match made in heaven!

 

[Will Steer]

A few thoughts:

1) I love the experience of cutting in Avid. It just has this feeling of precision. I would also say the way bins and projects work in Avid makes it the best collaborative editing tool, so if you have multiple editors and assistant editors working on the same project over shared storage it's brilliant (for instance, because bins exist outside your project file, meaning you can create a bin of say "GVs" and share that with an editor who has another Avid, and they can open it up and begin working, plus you can have an Avid project open on multiple computers at the same time no problem). I can imagine that (more than anything else) being useful for docs.

2) I worked on a documentary project in Adobe Premiere recently and wasn't impressed. The project file loaded slowly and sometimes playback was choppy. However, there were some poor workflow decisions made that impacted performance during the edit that were nothing to do with Premiere (long story).

3) Related to no. 2 above, we weren't running the fastest machines ever: an older Mac Pro and some MacBook Pro retinas (the retinas performed best). The thing about Adobe software is that it's power hungry, the more processing power (and GPU power) you feed it the better it runs. Avid runs great on everything, in my experience. So I'd say check your hardware before deciding on going for Premiere, although admittedly that's because when I've been cutting in Avid it's been with DNxHD or ProRes, whereas the above mentioned project in no.2 was mostly h264.

 

[Filip Vandoorne]

if you work in a mixed files type environment, i would recommend to have a good 2nd look at FCPX, but you need to take enough time and training to learn-adjust to the way fcpx works. Also don't fight the interface. embrace it. Talk with somebody who has used the software on different projects.
https://library.creativecow.net/austin_charlie/FCPX-Timeline/1 from http://fcpxpert.net is also a good start to start in the correct way.

 

[Scott Brown]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

As impressed as I am with FCP X, I just don't think it's there yet for broadcast work. It can't export OMF for audio post which is a basic requirement...not sure it even has colour bars for setup? I think it'll come but we're a while away.

The BBC may be using FCP X for short form packages BUT they are standardised on Avid for long form editing and I don't see this changing any time soon. We work with many BBD editors so this comes straight from the horses mouth.

For short form, non broadcast work, it think we'll use FCP X a lot though alongside PP.

I've installed Avid on a 30 day trial and I'm trying to get my head around the media management side - while it can cut natively, it seems that most people transcode to DNxHD. Set it up last night to take in 10 hours of footage and it appears solid so far. Still feels very very strange though coming from FCP 7.

Scott

 

[Oliver Peters]

As far as I know, the BBC has only adopted FCP X as an NLE in the field for news gathering trucks. Plus a few small islands within the operation.

As far as Avid, if your main experience is FCP 7, then I would recommend getting a Media Composer-savvy editor to come in on a day rate or as a favor and walk you through the best workflows. MC is pretty easy once you know the ins and outs, but often people start out wrong and get a bad taste when it really isn't necessary.

- Oliver

 

[Craig Parkes]

For your sort of work Media Composer is what you want - hands down.

Premiere does lots of things great, but collaborative long form series editing is definitely not one of them, and 10 x 30 minute eps says to me multiple editors and the potential to have to hand off from one editor to another mid project.

Avid, with a proxy workflow, is just far better at this than Premiere.

 

[Simon Dunne]

I've worked with FCP7, Avid and Premiere. I'm a Premiere guy for many reasons. The thing that will be important for you delivering to the BBC is AS-11 / DDP compliance. Adobe have worked very hard on this and you can tell they're looking forward. They're also very open not just in terms of their software, but their communication with the industry. We had a broadcast round table with them about 3 years ago. ITV are now based on an Adobe workflow, as are AP. When the BBC moved to Manchester, FCP7 was already factored into the move. Some of those suits may now be FCPX, but the plan is still to switch to Premiere as far as i understand. Most of the DMI imitative in London was based on Premiere, but it all went south for other reasons, not the choice of the NLE!

In terms of large projects, yes, a while ago it was trickier, but still do'able. I did two 6x30 in CS6. OMF out to the sound mixing house, grade was done in SpeedGrade via DPX. All very smooth when you know where the bugs are. Again, this was 2 years ago. Things have move on a lot from there. They've just editied Gone Girl in Premiere CC! I seriously wouldn't worry about the big project rumours, that's a thing of the past. I was working on Avid last week. It still has it's issues too. They all do. But, for what you need, i'd seriously move in the direction of Adobe.

Good luck!

 

[Mark Toia]

If OMF's is your only real want and the to and fro of ADOBE tools you don't real need, ... then I'd go with AVID. Its far smoother than Premier to edit with, And with AVID's new drag and drop style they adopted from FCP7, Avid has never looked better. Much easier to use from older versions... but still not as swift as FCP7.

I was a AVID man through and through for many years, I was scolded as a traitor and a 'amateur' when I flicked over to FCP7 some 10 years ago... but the reason I jumped ship was to save time chomping through the work, so I had more time at the end to be more creative. FCP7 was quicker and easier to use than AVID and still is. ( i go back to AVID from time to time to see if its lifted its game... Sadly it hasn't. )

When Premier was re-birthed with the promise of editing RED FILES, I tripped over myself to get onto it. GREAT !.. problem is that its a clunky old edit design from 10 - 15 years back with some flashy new interface and new tools. But the fact remains that its still slow and clip destructive to edit with and having to do 4 key strokes to move and slide clips with audio compared with Avid and FCP7 have 3 key strokes compared to only 1 key stoke to move Vision and audio with FCPX.

1 year I persisted with Prem and I then bailed, only because I was working slower than what I did with the now very old FCP7 and AVID. And there was know way in hell I was moving to FCPX. I Hate hate hated it.... 3 attempts over 12 months. (could have been much less if I had only just watched a few lesson) ...

Anyways to cut a long story short. time has passed FCPX won me over purley for it's speed... not to mention it eats both AVID and Prem for breakfast as a online box as well. You don't need to leave it as the Audio controls within FCPX are like off the chart. You pretty much have the back bone of LOGIC pro hiding behind it with so much high level audio control at your finger tips. Not to mention way better inbuilt colour controls.

(once you understand how to use it) It eats R3D files up, has an even quicker 1080p proxie work flow... and as I sit here typing this sentence I've just dragged 18.7 hours of 6k dragon footage into a single time line and its playing in the background smooth as silk.

If OMF's are your biggest and only problem then don;t go there.. but if time is more important then editing with FCPX can save hours.

Catch 22.

 

[Will Steer]

If OMF's is your only real want and the to and fro of ADOBE tools you don't real need, ... then I'd go with AVID. Its far smoother than Premier to edit with, And with AVID's new drag and drop style they adopted from FCP7, Avid has never looked better. Much easier to use from older versions... but still not as swift as FCP7.

I was a AVID man through and through for many years, I was scolded as a traitor and a 'amateur' when I flicked over to FCP7 some 10 years ago... but the reason I jumped ship was to save time chomping through the work, so I had more time at the end to be more creative. FCP7 was quicker and easier to use than AVID and still is. ( i go back to AVID from time to time to see if its lifted its game... Sadly it hasn't. )

When Premier was re-birthed with the promise of editing RED FILES, I tripped over myself to get onto it. GREAT !.. problem is that its a clunky old edit design from 10 - 15 years back with some flashy new interface and new tools. But the fact remains that its still slow and clip destructive to edit with and having to do 4 key strokes to move and slide clips with audio compared with Avid and FCP7 have 3 key strokes compared to only 1 key stoke to move Vision and audio with FCPX.

1 year I persisted with Prem and I then bailed, only because I was working slower than what I did with the now very old FCP7 and AVID. And there was know way in hell I was moving to FCPX. I Hate hate hated it.... 3 attempts over 12 months. (could have been much less if I had only just watched a few lesson) ...

Anyways to cut a long story short. time has passed FCPX won me over purley for it's speed... not to mention it eats both AVID and Prem for breakfast as a online box as well. You don't need to leave it as the Audio controls within FCPX are like off the chart. You pretty much have the back bone of LOGIC pro hiding behind it with so much high level audio control at your finger tips. Not to mention way better inbuilt colour controls.

(once you understand how to use it) It eats R3D files up, has an even quicker 1080p proxie work flow... and as I sit here typing this sentence I've just dragged 18.7 hours of 6k dragon footage into a single time line and its playing in the background smooth as silk.

If OMF's are your biggest and only problem then don;t go there.. but if time is more important then editing with FCPX can save hours.

Catch 22.

Also there's this now, as far as getting to Pro Tools from X goes: http://www.x2pro.net/

 

[MichaelP]

The thing that will be important for you delivering to the BBC is AS-11 / DDP compliance.

While there are plenty of considerations in choosing an NLE, Media Composer has been exporting AS-11/DDP for several versions now. Personally, I edit in MC, finish in Resolve or Smoke depending on needs of the sequence, then bring assets back into MC for broadcast delivery needs.

Michael

 

[Oliver Peters]

OMF has been brought up several times, but newer version of Pro Tools work with AAF, too. In fact, if you work an HD project in MC, you have to go through some workaround steps to create an OMF. You can generate AAF files out of MC, PProCC and FCP X (with X2Pro).

- Oliver

 

[Will Steer]

OMF has been brought up several times, but newer version of Pro Tools work with AAF, too. In fact, if you work an HD project in MC, you have to go through some workaround steps to create an OMF. You can generate AAF files out of MC, PProCC and FCP X (with X2Pro).

- Oliver

I've delivered AAF to sound for all my recent jobs.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

And what's also cool, is you can open up MXF video files in Pro Tools 11. The workflow is actually fairly seamless at this point, as to be expected with products from the same parent.

I always highly recommend testing any workflow thoroughly as there is bound to be some gotchas along the way.

People get projects done in Avid, Adobe, FCPX, Vegas, etc. What really matters is knowing what tool is right for you and the projects you work on. Knowing all of them gives you the distinct advantage of choosing the one that is right for a particular type of project. Unfortunately, NONE of them hit all of the checkboxes. Each one has strengths and weaknesses that can make and break projects.

 

[Scott Brown]

Thanks again for all your input here guys, it has been very very helpful indeed.

Where are we? - we have pretty much installed ALL options into our main edit suite. FCP 7 (for legacy projects - not running to well under Mavericks though), FCP X, Adobe CC, Resolve and now Avid MC 8.

The two that excite me most are FCP X and Resolve, they feel right, not scientific I know BUT my gut feeling is they are the apps to watch. However, we have 12 hours of television to deliver in 2015 and we'll need to run several suites with editors working together throughout so it looks like we'll settle on Avid for this work. It won't be FX rich, just a seriously large amount of HD footage with basic cuts and mixes.

We have Avid MC 8 installed - we paid for an upgrade from 6.5 BUT first issue is that we have to wait for 5 days to get our activation code! Workaround was to install the 30 day trial and that's what we're running. We're running this on a new mac pro with a BMD UltraStudio 4K box for output - not that stable so we're planning on going back to V7 to solve stability issues.

Fortunately we have a very experienced Avid editor working for us so he's showing me the ropes and so far it's all going well. Project management is messing with my head right now as it handles projects completely differently from FCP 7 BUT I can see the reason and it makes sharing projects a walk in the park!

We have tried using Automatic Duck to open up legacy FCP 7 projects BUT this hasn't worked for us - we can get the timelines to open up BUT cannot relink media. Anyone figured this out?

I honestly never thought we'd go down the Avid route BUT it's making sense for our tv long form projects - for our corporate work though FCP X will most likely be our pick.

Oliver, thanks for the X2Pro information - another step closer to making FCP X the winner here )

Thanks again everyone. I'll keep posting on our progress!

Best wishes

Scott