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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

preferred frame rates for future 4K media sales ?

Les Dittert

Les Dittert

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I am shooting some non narrative 'world' media that is destined for sale into the 4K marketplace.
No speaking people. About half of the footage is slowmo.
At this time, with all the talk of 60 FPS HDMI2 and streaming media outlets, I'm thinking that 24 FPS is not what I should be shooting anymore.
Should I shoot 30/60/90 instead ? I have absolutely no love for 24 FPS and that nostalgia that goes with it. Same goes for photo-chemical noise ( grain ) .

What to do ?
 
Everything I know of that's on it's way, minus one moderate push towards 120fps, is all going to be 24-60fps.
 
Even if you do not like 24p you should consider that 24p gives you a very good data/frame rate. But then again, I love all the stuff you hate about 24p.
I done quite a few projects in 50p and hate it for the look of it and the difficulties of posting it. (vfx gets far more than twice as difficult)

also shooting hfr limits your light if not shooting 360 shutter but to me thats really looks bad.

But it really comes down to taste so better to do your own tests.
 
Les Dittert said:
I am shooting some non narrative 'world' media that is destined for sale into the 4K marketplace.
No speaking people. About half of the footage is slowmo.
At this time, with all the talk of 60 FPS HDMI2 and streaming media outlets, I'm thinking that 24 FPS is not what I should be shooting anymore.
Should I shoot 30/60/90 instead ? I have absolutely no love for 24 FPS and that nostalgia that goes with it. Same goes for photo-chemical noise ( grain ) .

What to do ?
Click to expand...

I'm aiming for 48 fps for future projects. The fact you can revert to 24 fps gives one options. Of course this means I will shoot more like I was shooting film since there are costs in storage and media use. I'm hoping Dragon will nullify Björns warning of light loss, (and give as good as current Epic MX) and I think familiarity will win over those who feel high framerate footage doesn't look quite right.
 
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Frame rate at the moment is as important as lens selection to me.

24p isn't going to die because people like the way this painting looks, especially when it comes to that "cinema feel". Same for 25p for those across the pond.

Oddly, most I know don't love 30p, but again it's popular and it works for a lot of different types of content.

48p and 60p are the new kids on the block and produce unique results as well. When shot well and played back well you're truly looking through a window and experiencing things like you were there. However, this sometimes may not translate well for a "cinema feel".

Two interesting things I've noticed. Any damn thing you do to a HFR shoot is visible. Shooting technique needs to be top notch.

I have been experimenting with how people "feel" in regards to slower shutter speeds/angles with HFR and have found some interesting data. While our general rule of thumb is the good old 180 degree shutter for 24fps content I'm beginning to sense that something in the 240 degree range is easier on the brain for HFR.

Give it a try. I was going to write a white paper on it with my data, but meh, Siggraph is a week long and a year away.
 
Phil Holland said:
...

Two interesting things I've noticed. Any damn thing you do to a HFR shoot is visible. Shooting technique needs to be top notch.

I have been experimenting with how people "feel" in regards to slower shutter speeds/angles with HFR and have found some interesting data. While our general rule of thumb is the good old 180 degree shutter for 24fps content I'm beginning to sense that something in the 240 degree range is easier on the brain for HFR.

Give it a try. I was going to write a white paper on it with my data, but meh, Siggraph is a week long and a year away.
Click to expand...
Interesting observations Phil. Hopefully your comments and further observations will find their way onto Reduser.
 
phil, i bought an eeg to start some HFR testing of my own (among other things)... should have it next month ready to rock. want to share data and work on this thing together? i'll be doing some writing anyways, siggraph would be a good place to present it. would love to see some animated 3d content try HFR... (:
 
The most future proof, relatively speaking, format I know is to shoot 360° shutter at 48FPS. You can pull every other frame for 24FPS delivery that has essentially a 180° shutter and still have a 48FPS version for everything else that might come along. When making a 30FPS version from 48, you do have an odd cadence issue. IMO that "motion effect" is similar enough to 24FPS content played back at 30FPS in terms of perceived motion characteristic that it doesn't bother most viewers. YMMV.

Shooting 60FPS is the other obvious choice, but unless you have a specific deliverable in the near term that needs it, you might be in overkill territory in terms of media usage, compression ratios, lighting needs, etc.

Cheers - #19
 
paulherrin said:
phil, i bought an eeg to start some HFR testing of my own (among other things)... should have it next month ready to rock. want to share data and work on this thing together? i'll be doing some writing anyways, siggraph would be a good place to present it. would love to see some animated 3d content try HFR... (:
Click to expand...

Maybe. It will need to wait until after NAB as I'm currently a busy human and "knead to make the dough". I have about 5 years of data going back to early 2009. Much of this has been studied before in relationship to gaming.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
The most future proof, relatively speaking, format I know is to shoot 360° shutter at 48FPS. You can pull every other frame for 24FPS delivery that has essentially a 180° shutter and still have a 48FPS version for everything else that might come along. When making a 30FPS version from 48, you do have an odd cadence issue. IMO that "motion effect" is similar enough to 24FPS content played back at 30FPS in terms of perceived motion characteristic that it doesn't bother most viewers. YMMV.

Shooting 60FPS is the other obvious choice, but unless you have a specific deliverable in the near term that needs it, you might be in overkill territory in terms of media usage, compression ratios, lighting needs, etc.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Blair, shoot everything at 360 degree shutter? Are there any lighting situations (low light, bright sunlight) where you might opt for a different shutter?
 
There are a number of factors that I would consider based on specific parameters in a given situation. I was just responding to Les' specific request for a nominal strategy to extend the shelf life of generic assets created in stock situations. There are certainly downsides to the 48FPS @ 360° choice, but, IMO, the downsides to other choices are worse for "most" material. Keep in mind that turning 48 into 60 if required could be accomplished by doing essentially the same process currently used for playing back 24 at 30.

What seals it for me is that by pulling every other frame you would have 24FPS material with an effective 180° shutter that could be cut into native 24FPS projects. While "protecting" for HFR is a smart move, in the short term many of the potential buyers of that footy are all about 24FPS/180° - unless you don't want their money...

Cheers - #19
 
Part of the missing information for me is : what are the formats that streaming companies are planing to offer ? Also, does 4K disk delivery have planed provisions for 24,30 and 60 ?
I hope that these entities are smart enough to make the frame rates flexible. Not like BD, which has no 30 progressive as part of the standard, for example.

I have some leeway, since I'm not shooting dialog but still, I want to pick the most compatible format for 4k sales in the next few years. I have one buyer who does not want any 24P 4K media for example.
What a mess ! ;)

Reminds me of Japan. Half of the country has 50 hz AC power, the other half has 60 Hz !
 
Elsie N said:
Blair, shoot everything at 360 degree shutter? Are there any lighting situations (low light, bright sunlight) where you might opt for a different shutter?
Click to expand...

Not sure what Blair is smokin' tonight - I think he's confusing shutter speed with equivalent degree calculation. 1/96th of second shutter speed at 48fps is equal to 180 degree shutter. You don't wanna shoot 48fps with a 360 degree shutter.

Shoot 24fps and your future will be just fine.
 
I am done with grain, in spite of my age, but i still love 24fps and I am darn sure that love won't ever go away... 24 spells surreal, and that is a great place to narrate a good story... that said 60+ fps has its place too...

what you are looking for is audience poll data and trends within that data, coupled with the hope that standards will acomodate the audience, and if possible the clarivoyance to know which of the two (surreal or real) the buyer will happen to be going after :)

The pragmatic advice is 48/96, and forget 30 (imo) because it is redundant
 
Phil Holland said:
I have been experimenting with how people "feel" in regards to slower shutter speeds/angles with HFR and have found some interesting data. While our general rule of thumb is the good old 180 degree shutter for 24fps content I'm beginning to sense that something in the 240 degree range is easier on the brain for HFR.
Click to expand...
I think Phil's suggestion is a good balance. 48p, 240 degree footage gives you a few easy options:

1. Use as is for HFR playback.
2. Drop every second frame for 24p, 120 deg playback.
3. Play back at 24p for slow motion.
 
Elsie N said:
Probably true. But that is so 2013. '-)
Click to expand...

2014 and 2013 are identical at the moment. If you want to make pictures for yourself, you can do whatever you want. If you want to make something that someone might eventually buy, and that appropriately represents the time in which it was made, Mark's advice is right on the money.
 
Les Dittert said:
At this time, with all the talk of 60 FPS HDMI2 and streaming media outlets, I'm thinking that 24 FPS is not what I should be shooting anymore.
Should I shoot 30/60/90 instead ? I have absolutely no love for 24 FPS and that nostalgia that goes with it. Same goes for photo-chemical noise ( grain ) .

What to do ?
Click to expand...

All of the talk about "60 FPS HDMI2" is related to using displays as desktop monitors because 30 fps is too choppy.

It has very little to do with the direction in which film production is heading. Sure there is talk about TV eventually being broadcast at 60 fps but that's not why people are talking about it right now.
 
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