Phil's Cine RF Mount & Adapter F.A.Q.

[Phil Holland]

So your next thread probably should be the same question but about adapters, and I know Phil is doing a shit-ton of testing there.

I've been summoned

Jarred is right. I haven't just been testing and experimenting with adapters since Komodo's announcement, but this started when the RF-Mount was announced. I'm a lens nut as well as a camera nut. Some of this advice has already been used in the field prior to Komodo's official release, which you've seen here and there via bts pics.

Much like RED's initial offerings of multiple mounts and subsequent use of a adapters as well, Komodo inspires a great deal of creativity and flexibility with it's compact and forward thinking mount RF-Mount.

But RF is new. So new, some don't even know about it in the world of motion picture production.

Let's jump in.


What is the RF-Mount?
RF-Mount Canon's new shorter flange depth electronic mount introduced in 2018. Similar to the wildly popular and successful EF Mount, but with a flange focal distance of 20mm rather than the EF's 44mm FFD. And that means you can adapt nearly 70 of the about 85 mount standards to it. That's a lot of glass. It's a locking bayonet with a button release. If you've ever used an EF Mount, this will be super familiar to you.


So what can you easily adapt to Komodo?
- RF>Canon-EF (that's a given and Canon's electronic adapter is great and they make 3 of them)
- RF>Leica-M (Simple mechanical as well as helicoid for closer focus)
- RF>PL Mount
- Anything you can adapt to EF Mount like Leica-R, Olympus OM, Nikon F, Canon FD/FL, etc. The sky if virtually the limit.


What can't you adapt to RF?
Focusing on the modern stuff, notably you can't mount:
- Nikon Z-Mount
- Sony E-Mount or FZ-Mount
- Fujifilm's X-Mount

Those all have shorter flange focal distances, so no go. Physically impossible and honestly you'd need new electronics anyways.


Who is currently or will be making RF>PL Mount Adapters?
- Metabones (support foot needs to be modified)
- Breakthrough Filters
- KipperTie
- Wooden Camera
- Fotodiox
- MTF Services
- Vocas
- C7 Adapters (ciecio7)
- and others


Can you use a Speedbooster?
Yes, currently the obvious choice would be Metabones who makes both RF>PL and RF>EF Speedboosters. These will allow you to see more of the image circle from full frame 35mm lenses or larger format on your Super 35mm+ Komodo sensor with the added benefit of the lens itself being about 1 stop faster. Be aware you are still adding optics into the mix, so you might see some additional distortion and artifacts particularly around the edge of frame. There's already RF to various other mounts too. Like more coming and more manufacturers as well.


A special word on L-Mount and Unreleased Lenses
Sigma, Panasonic, and Leica have formed the L-Mount Alliance in 2018. Something must have been in the air that year I've spoken to Sigma as well as various newer and older manufacturers about RF Mount support. I personally would expect some of the L-Mount glass to come to RF-Mount as it in some cases wouldn't require re-inventing the wheel but rather swapping mounts and possibly electronics. Totally exploiting my relationship with a few lens manufacturers as well, expect much more RF glass incoming from the usual and unusual sources. Laowa for instance has some nice tiny wide angle primes coming.


Some Canon RF-Mount Notes
RF-Mount is the newest in Canon's lineup and it took them a few decades to flesh out their massive EF lens line-up to where it is today. However, they are focused and releasing some pretty kick butt newer lenses like very high speed zooms and extremely modern designed high speed primes, an avalanche more incoming. Also their new focusing motor system in RF glass is pretty rad for autofocus, still and motion. I suspect actually faster, more accurate, and more robust than anything EF actually.

One thing Canon introduced with the RF-Mount is the new concept of a Control Ring. Really cool to see something new in the mix. For RF-Mount native lenses, this ring exists on the lens itself. On their cameras you can map it to do certain things. They also make an RF>EF Control Ring Adapter. I mention this because we don't know yet how RED and Komodo plans to tackle this, but the imagination runs wild. Iris control? ISO control? User configurable? Tune-able AF speed? We just don't know. Too early. But it does possibly give you a potential shortcut key/ring, which is cool.


Behind the Lens Neutral Density (ND)
One of the exciting things about this RF-Mount is we have some space to work with. Which allows for behind the lens ND and Variable ND solutions. Canon makes an official Variable ND, but there are others as well. Though I have their RF>VND EF adapter here, I prefer physical NDs as they don't have many of the pitfalls of VNDs. But if you are looking to save dough and work fast, these work.

Notably and likely very useful will be KipperTie's upcoming Revolva-RF>PL which much like the DSMC2/DSMC model uses a mechanical rotating cartridge system with 4X physical ND windows that you can configure yourself. John's nearly done with the prototype as of March 2020. Expect it to drop likely around Komodo time. I think he is also working on a Revolva RF>EF, but I don't recall. Certainly possible.

There's also more ND related stuff incoming. 2020/2021 will be fun on this front.


Support Your Glass
The RF-Mount is pretty robust, but it's still a thin mount in comparison to say PL. I personally would recommend lens support for glass 5-6lbs and heavier and certainly longer lenses that might even fall under the weight class I just mentioned.

Many of the PL-Mount Adapters include a support foot. That is there for you to mount your base plate to for a very rigid and strong little package.

Many lenses in the modern era also have a support foot for a rod support or plate support.

In some instances, like long super-telephoto lenses, you might just be supporting the lens and letting Komodo dangle, that will work. I like to imagine a tiny Komodo with legs wiggling in the air


Small or Big
Komodo expresses itself as a mini-cinema camera, mini-utility camera, tiny-block cam, or whatever you want to call it. One of it's biggest strengths is just how small you can have a shooting package. I'm talking < 4lbs in some cases. Which is insane. But get creative. Use the big glass too. Use whatever it takes to make the shot. Komodo allows for that sort of mindset. Much like RED has displayed with it's modular compact cinema cameras, you can always make a small camera bigger, but you can nearly never make a large camera smaller.


Komodo Specific Specs
RED Komodo 6K is an S35+ sensor, which means it's format size is a bit larger than Super 35mm in width, but is actually within the Super 35mm 4-perf image circle spec.

Here is a comparison of Komodo 6K FF and Kodak Super 35mm 3-perf

And here is a comparison of Komodo 6K FF and Kodak Super 35mm 4-perf

That means you can use VistaVision, Large Format, FF35, 135 Still lenses as well as Super 35mm and APS-C lenses on Komodo. And likely very good coverage on older Academy 35mm lenses. Especially at 6K HD.


Komodo 6K RF + Speedboosters
Yes Speedboosters (focal reducers) will work with RED Komodo 6K. Metabones has been sort of dominating here, but expect others to join in shortly. At the moment RF>EF Speedboosters are available. I'm expecting an RF>PL Speedbooster later this year.

For those new to these things. In the case of a FF35<APS-C Focal Reducer/Speedbooster you traditionally have about 0.71X reduction of the FF35 image to the APS-C image plane, giving Komodo's 27.03mm wide sensor an effectove Field of View of a 38mm wide sensor with the added benefit of gaining about 1 stop of light. So your T2.8 lens becomes effectively as sensitive as a T2.

Pros and cons to all of that. You are still adding more optics into the mix, and though mostly brag about higher center MTF, you might see enhanced distortion, CA, artifacts, etc. I still personally like to stop down a stop when using Speedboosters, pretty much my advice for all optical adapters. They are incredibly useful, but they don't walk on water. And remember if your lens tops out at T16 and you've boosted it, you now have a minimum aperture of T11. Plan for ND accordingly.


Feel Free to Ask
Komodo has brought a lot of new peeps to this corner of the internet and hopefully I can be an informative resource for you. I am in the rare position of owning, used, or have tested nearly lens ever made in the last 100+ years. If you have a question, I can likely answer it. I'm super excited about what this new RF-Mount brings to keeping Komodo small but also empowering the more common cinema-minded mount standards to be more flexible than ever.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Thanks for this awesome thread !
So just to be clear : a 0.71X focal reducer would work with FF lenses ?

And what about Kipon's focal reducer for Mamiya 645 to RF FF ? What would be the result on Komodo ?

But thanks again for this thread it's awesome and answers a lot of questions I had

 

[Peter Stanley]

Fantastic thread. Thank you Phill.

 

[STEVE LEAVESLEY]

You are a resource to be celebrated and cherished. Living embodiment of all that is good about RED and REDUser.

Thanks - from us all!

 

[Gregory Karydis]

Excellent topic and VERY useful!
Thanks Phil!!!

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks for this awesome thread !
So just to be clear : a 0.71X focal reducer would work with FF lenses ?

And what about Kipon's focal reducer for Mamiya 645 to RF FF ? What would be the result on Komodo ?

But thanks again for this thread it's awesome and answers a lot of questions I had

Yes. That is the idea. Many of the commercially available Focal Reducers/Speedboosters were created to assist in giving smaller formats the larger format look as well as the maximum coverage of the larger format glass, like MFT and APS-C using FF35 glass.

Though none of the RF cameras are APS-C, the video mode actually is an aggressive crop on current cams, which is why this adapter was created.

Whatever you throw at a reducer it's enlarged by it's magnification ratio. So Mamiya 645 is still just the 0.71X. You can go nuts by stacking reducers (S35>FF35>645), but that's a lot of crazy optics to get there. Heck I might try that for fun, but I already know it will be adding a bit more distortion than ideal and very likely much more vignetting.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Yes. That is the idea. Many of the commercially available Focal Reducers/Speedboosters were created to assist in giving smaller formats the larger format look as well as the maximum coverage of the larger format glass, like MFT and APS-C using FF35 glass.

Though none of the RF cameras are APS-C, the video mode actually is an aggressive crop on current cams, which is why this adapter was created.

Whatever you throw at a reducer it's enlarged by it's magnification ratio. So Mamiya 645 is still just the 0.71X. You can go nuts by stacking reducers (S35>FF35>645), but that's a lot of crazy optics to get there. Heck I might try that for fun, but I already know it will be adding a bit more distortion than ideal and very likely much more vignetting.

Haha thanks !
I will just use the Mamiya to RF adapter alone. Not to far from where I live there's a used photo store that sells LOT of old gear especially Mamiya stuff at amazing prices.

 

[Domingo Lamarre]

Thanks Phil super useful and informative!
Is there such a thing as a speedbooster (or other brands) RF>EF that also allows to add ND filter behind the lens?
Or am I just being greedy? :lol:

 

[Gregory Karydis]

Thanks Phil super useful and informative!
Is there such a thing as a speedbooster (or other brands) RF>EF that also allows to add ND filter behind the lens?
Or am I just being greedy? :lol:

That would require space for optical elements to perform the speedboosting effect, as well as extra space for the variable ND...
The only way I see that happening is if it is a powered LCD ND.
But I would love it if I am wrong!

 

[Luke Marcus Rosen]

Thanks for the article Phil. For Leica-M mount lenses that are wider than 50mm, specifically say the Zeiss ZM 15mm with a rear element that protrudes significantly past the locking lugs of the mount, do you suspect the rear element to still fit inside the flange distance?

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

So when do we get to see it in action?

 

[Vance Colvig]

Thanks Phil for all you do here. Have you stumbled on any RF to PL (positive locking) adapters for Nikon, Canon EF, Leica M or yet, and if so, build quality?

 

[Andreas Eymannsberger]

Let's hope somebody is already planning fixed ND inserts for the Canon adapter.

Metabones says that there are no plans to update their EF - RF Speed Booster Ultra 0,71 with a locking cine version.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Thanks for the article Phil. For Leica-M mount lenses that are wider than 50mm, specifically say the Zeiss ZM 15mm with a rear element that protrudes significantly past the locking lugs of the mount, do you suspect the rear element to still fit inside the flange distance?

While I can only dream of being Phil, I will note that once an RF>PL adapter is in place you are back to a 52mm FFD that should accommodate any protruding rear elements that fit PL native.

Cheers - #19

 

[Lee Saxon]

Thanks for this awesome thread !
So just to be clear : a 0.71X focal reducer would work with FF lenses ?

And what about Kipon's focal reducer for Mamiya 645 to RF FF ? What would be the result on Komodo ?

The 0.71x reducers will definitely need to be tested. They are intended to cover a 28.85mm APS-C image circle, whereas Komodo's is 30.5mm. We don't know for sure exactly how much leeway there is, it may or may not squeak by.

Comparing a 645 camera to Komodo, without a focal reducer, that would give a 2.07x crop factor (that's horizontal field of view, which I find most useful, especially with 645 and Komodo being very different aspect ratios; diagonal FoV it's 2.3). Adding the 0.7x Kipon, you multiply 2.07 and 0.7, getting a 1.449x crop factor (or 1.61x if you're using diagonal).

 

[Lee Saxon]

Thanks for the article Phil. For Leica-M mount lenses that are wider than 50mm, specifically say the Zeiss ZM 15mm with a rear element that protrudes significantly past the locking lugs of the mount, do you suspect the rear element to still fit inside the flange distance?

Yes, it will. And by definition, it must. The Leica M to Canon RF adapter you'll buy to use this lens exists to extend the FFD to match that of a Leica M camera so that infinity focus can be achieved. Therefore any lens which didn't crash into the sensor/film on a native Leica M body won't when properly adapted either.

Rear protrusions like this can cause problems in three cases: (1) adapting to an SLR, where the protrusion interferes not with the sensor/film but with the mirror, not relevant to Leica M since its FFD is too short for any SLR, and (2) mounting on focal reducers, where the rear protrusion interferes not with the sensor/film but with the glass in the focal reducer, not relevant to Leica M since its FFD is too short to allow any focal reducers to be made for it, and (3) the rear protrusion is not too deep but too WIDE for the mount you're trying to adapt to [or perhaps for the adapter itself], not relevant to Leica M since its mount diameter is much smaller than Canon RF.

 

[Will Ma]

Thanks Phil. I love this stuff. I appreciate you writing this post. It was informative and helpful!

 

[Jared Palick]

+1 Really amazing resource Phil; will definitely be pinning this one for future referencing. Thanks much!

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

The 0.71x reducers will definitely need to be tested. They are intended to cover a 28.85mm APS-C image circle, whereas Komodo's is 30.5mm. We don't know for sure exactly how much leeway there is, it may or may not squeak by.

Comparing a 645 camera to Komodo, without a focal reducer, that would give a 2.07x crop factor (that's horizontal field of view, which I find most useful, especially with 645 and Komodo being very different aspect ratios; diagonal FoV it's 2.3). Adding the 0.7x Kipon, you multiply 2.07 and 0.7, getting a 1.449x crop factor (or 1.61x if you're using diagonal).

THANKS !
That's exactly what I needed.

 

[Andi Loor]

Talking about adapters I wonder if anyone can help me. I have a Canon 300mm F2.8 FD lens modified to PL mount. Since I mainly use EF lenses I was thinking of getting an adapter from PL to EF, so I ordered one from Fotodiox. Strangely enough the PL mount on the lens was too big for the adapter so it is useless for me. I read somewhere that PL mounts can vary in size/depth, but I'm a bit at a loss and would like to hear if there is more knowledge about this kind of problem, as well as finding a working adapter. Thanks