Peter Jackson's Hobbit blog...

[Graeme Nattress]

Thanks CJ - positive thinking and an attitude to solve problems is what we need here.

Graeme

 

[paulherrin]

my bad guys, those are fair statements. thanks for being patient with me, you guys have indeed been constructive about this. i was under the assumption this was only an issue with tungsten lighting and that it affected all cameras and the eye (though unequally, for one reason or another). i also had assumed that filtering the lights or using daylight balanced lights solved the problem. you guys have a good team on top of the issue, and i appreciate your work to resolve it or instruct on avoidance. i have not had this issue or had to deal with television producers breathing down my neck, so i apologize for lack of empathy on my part. now that i think about it, i'm sure you guys have had a lot of fun dealing with this and i'm sorry about that, cause i know you guys love your cameras, and get tired of all the misinformation floating around that we have to deal with... it's quite aggravating. sorry for the oversight, good luck guys.

 

[CJ Roy]

Thanks CJ - positive thinking and an attitude to solve problems is what we need here.

Graeme

Graeme, thanks. I love my MX and I love my Epic. They are truly amazing cameras and have benefits that other cameras can't compare with. Happy to do anything to help them be better and rid ourselves of common misconceptions.

 

[CJ Roy]

my bad guys, those are fair statements. thanks for being patient with me, you guys have indeed been constructive about this. i was under the assumption this was only an issue with tungsten lighting and that it affected all cameras and the eye (though unequally, for one reason or another). i also had assumed that filtering the lights or using daylight balanced lights solved the problem. you guys have a good team on top of the issue, and i appreciate your work to resolve it or instruct on avoidance. i have not had this issue or had to deal with television producers breathing down my neck, so i apologize for lack of empathy on my part. now that i think about it, i'm sure you guys have had a lot of fun dealing with this and i'm sorry about that, cause i know you guys love your cameras, and get tired of all the misinformation floating around that we have to deal with... it's quite aggravating. sorry for the oversight, good luck guys.

Thanks Paul,

There's just a lot going on with these productions that are beyond the camera department's control. The issue is helped with daylight lighting, but it's still there. We've tried everything, believe me. But remember, a lot of these shoots can't always be shot with daylight. It's just not practical in a lot of circumstances. We can't simply say that Red can't be used in tungsten. I'm not going to accept that and we've continued to shoot on Red despite this issue.

The issue really presents itself when the director busts out his 5D and the make-up issues you've been battling all day long are simply gone. That's not to defend the 5D whatsoever, it just makes our horse look a little lame.

Anyhow, we'll supply Graeme with the footage he needs and maybe it'll be factored in on the next color science revision. All we can do is present the problem to the smarter guys in the room.

 

[paulherrin]

yeah... i can only imagine that really sucks in such a mixed setting. not cool. have you tried removing the OLPF, and/or filtering for light outside the visual spectrum? i do have to say it's an intriguing problem but i don't really have an answer for (which explains why i don't like it) and i can see how you want to check it out from a color science perspective. i guess it's not out of the question that the camera is being extra-sensitive to certain wavelengths or something similar. also possible that other cameras are just less sensitive. i'm also guessing that most makeup is tested, designed and typically applied using daylight sources? anyways... hope you guys can lay this one to rest!

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Couldn't get it... trust me I tried : ) . Some companies don't understand the needs for us geeks wanting their test footage for ' examination ' heh heh heh.

And yes a ton of stuff being shot by Victoria Secret on RED.

I watched few times but I couldn't come to pint point the problem here... I guess I need to stop looking at the girl, and look for the skin, wait I am looking at the skin...

He he, yeah some times I see it and others I don't, but you see for me and my style I love this look and how it some times flattens the skin tones.

 

[Erich Ocean]

Interesting that they even comment on the RED makeup issue, which has proved to be a problem on almost every shoot for me. I've started a chart of problem makeup brands/tones and meet with the makeup artist prior to every shoot to discuss. Most are very receptive and over the last year word is starting to spread and makeup artists are becoming more aware of how to deal with it. It's been detailed in this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?55659-Makeup-showing-up-with-greenish-hue

I was hoping for some improvement on Epic but the problem persists. For me, it is the one major bummer of this camera, and something I don't have to deal with as much or at all when shooting any other camera. (alexa, 5D, film). I would love it if the RED TEAM could improve the camera in this area.

Thanks for sharing this! I had no idea... but it looks easy enough to deal with.

 

[Steven Parker]

In the Hobbit blog that opens this thread, a make-up artist (actually she's the Prosthetics Supervisor) discusses this very issue - skin tones reading a slight yellow. Their solution was to add a bit of extra red to the make-up.

Check the video at 6:45.

 

[Deanan]

In the Hobbit blog that opens this thread, a make-up artist (actually she's the Prosthetics Supervisor) discusses this very issue - skin tones reading a slight yellow. Their solution was to add a bit of extra red to the make-up.

Check the video at 6:45.

As was posted earlier, the color issues are tied to the mirror on the 3D rig, not the camera.

 

[Ketch Rossi]

As was posted earlier, the color issues are tied to the mirror on the 3D rig, not the camera.

EXACTLY!!

Also as we use Premium Mirrors as well on the ATOM, we know of this, and people seem immediately to jump to conclusions of it been the Sensor on the EPIC's fault... Pay more attention people, PJ said it very clearly too...

 

[Bill Anderson]

In the Hobbit blog that opens this thread, a make-up artist (actually she's the Prosthetics Supervisor) discusses this very issue - skin tones reading a slight yellow. Their solution was to add a bit of extra red to the make-up.

Check the video at 6:45.

No she does not discuss this very "issue". What she talks about is the need to adjust skin tones for the 3D and conditions that are present on the set. She's not saying that that there is a universal issue that needs crimson makeup applied impasto style to get good skin tones. This is an absurd reading of Epics capabilities. Again, if we were to drop in on The Great Gatsby set we would find a very different scenario, one that would entail a different approach to meet their artistic ends. The "issue" presented by Eric is one that suggests quite subtle shifts in the camera's response to differences of make up application - not skin tones per se - but more heavily applied makeup areas. Consider the Ogre in question, I don't think there is a millimeter of what could be called skin: it is makeup on prosthetics....
Eric suggests that this makeup issue might not be peculiar to his methods, and Graeme is taking a look at the situation.

 

[Dave Blackham]

Thanks Jarred. I'd completely forgotten the 3d aspect.

Graeme

We had a real issue with a commercial beamsplitter rig mirror (made in Germany) recently had really evil pola issues in the sky, and was hard to correct in post. The reason for our supprise was we have our own mirrors built for us, 2.5% accurate or better split, 1/4 wavelength flat and have very good coatings for AR and didn't see the issue on our own rigs, all be it we didn't have time to do a side by side test but Id just highlight not all mirrors are the same. It is a performance to have the mirrors built but the results are very good.

 

[Deanan]

No she does not discuss this very "issue". What she talks about is the need to adjust skin tones for the 3D and conditions that are present on the set. She's not saying that that there is a universal issue that needs crimson makeup applied impasto style to get good skin tones. This is an absurd reading of Epics capabilities. Again, if we were to drop in on The Great Gatsby set we would find a very different scenario, one that would entail a different approach to meet their artistic ends. The "issue" presented by Eric is one that suggests quite subtle shifts in the camera's response to differences of make up application - not skin tones per se - but more heavily applied makeup areas. Consider the Ogre in question, I don't think there is a millimeter of what could be called skin: it is makeup on prosthetics....
Eric suggests that this makeup issue might not be peculiar to his methods, and Graeme is taking a look at the situation.

One thing to note is where you do the saturation. Pre-gamma vs post gamma.
If you're saturating strongly with pre-gamma (which is what happens
with raw development in (rcx, lightroom, etc) then you can push colors
harder, much faster. If you output a neutral wider gamut image (like RC2/RG2 or RLF)
and then saturate in grading, you'll get a tonally compensated saturation
which tracks nicely with colors and strong saturation.

RCXP now has a post gamma saturation also in post effects.

 

[Christopher Probst]

Eric, I'd love to see you post your list of makeup brands that you experienced problems with... I'd load that into my iphone and have that info handy with me all of the time! Just in case...

 

[Deanan]

Eric, I'd love to see you post your list of makeup brands that you experienced problems with... I'd load that into my iphone and have that info handy with me all of the time! Just in case...

+1. I'd also like to know which brands are problematic and which aren't.

 

[Paul Ellington]

EXACTLY!!

Also as we use Premium Mirrors as well on the ATOM, we know of this, and people seem immediately to jump to conclusions of it been the Sensor on the EPIC's fault... Pay more attention people, PJ said it very clearly too...

Ketch, question, should I be using a hot mirror 24/7?

 

[Eric Ulbrich]

+1 for sure. Would be super helpful

Eric, I'd love to see you post your list of makeup brands that you experienced problems with... I'd load that into my iphone and have that info handy with me all of the time! Just in case...

 

[Cal Lundgren]

Well I'm certainly drooling over Peter's camera department. Must be nice (to say the least!) Well I can dream too.

 

[Mark Toia]

Eric, CJ, we're always working on improving things. I'm testing new ideas almost daily looking for potential improvements. For anything related to colorimetry please feel free to contact me and get me to look at stuff. An R3D frame with details of lighting used, and makeup used (if that's relating to the issue) and hopefully a chart in shot will help me dig into things.

With respect to the Hobbit comments above, Peter's crew haven't contacted us about colorimetry issues because as Jarred points out, the issue is with the beam-splitter mirror and how it effects the light going through (or reflected of it) it before it touches the camera. They feel saturation compensation is best when saturation is lowered rather than raises, so by oomphing up the saturation of the scene, they're dropping saturation in post rather than raising it, leading to an image more to their liking.

Graeme

That Peter jackson blog showing technicians over colorising all there sets and actors makup really had me scratching my head... I get what ever skins tones I want from any subject i shoot.., I can key anything in Resolve or flame and exaggerate, pull up or pull down with such ease any colour I want.... I can make them BLUE for crying out loud ?
So so weird they can't do the same. Such a weird thing to do...

Makes me feel like out of the army of brilliant people Peter has working for him, the colourist department has dropped the ball in that area. And Peter or his post dept are just reacting to incorrect advice. But hey! this happens on a lot of movies. I had an experience with bad film timing during processing from a so super experienced called expert. Colours and contast looked like shit!.

I just had a quick 2 minute play in resolved with the worst shot I could find... A guy lit from a common house hold fluorescent tube .. Typically green... Even with the worst image and colour basis I could find, i could still dictate the over look and skin tones and saturation to what ever I desire.
I could make the person in this short any sort of shade or colour I like. Would love to know why the Hobbit colourist is having issues... RAW is RAW is it not...

Just read more of these posts, sounds like its a mirror issue from the 3d rigs ?... ? well over my head.

 

[Eric Haase]

Here are some brands that have proven problematic and some that are ok. It's been difficult to pinpoint if an entire brand is no good or just certain tones, mostly because the tests I have done happen on a prelight day where we have a rig to put in and the artists time is limited or on a shoot day where we are just trying to fix it and save our asses.

If I've had a problem with it, the brand goes on the list. If there was a way at the time to easily get the exact product number I did. But some brands don't seem to have them - in which case I just wrote down the brand. The brands on the GOOD list have never given problems, but that's not to say there don't exist tones within those brands that won't in the future. I just started creating this list recently- definitely should have started much sooner but there are so many brands and hundreds of tones it seems a daunting task to catalog all of them. If anyone can add to this list please do.

NO GOOD
Visiora (PL 006) and maybe all Visiora
Bobby Brown
"HD makeup"


GOOD
Gerda Spillman (CH-8134)
La Mer Tan
Armani
Loreal Tru Match Cool