Peter Jackson's Hobbit blog...

[CJ Roy]

and CJ of course we are always eager to improve things... I just want to make sure it is clear, this is not a skin tone issue. it is a certain Makeup issue.

Well right, it's a certain type of make-up in combination with Red, issue. And yes, usually a colorist can isolate out the issue, but that does take a further step outside of what we can do on set, or with RedCine-X. Obviously it'd be more beneficial to be able to take care of it on set, if there is no further coloring session budgeted.

One of the jobs I work on is the Disney Channel International Promo shoot that happens twice a year. Usually it's 5-7 days on two green screen stages simultaneously shooting that next years promos for about 6-8 shows. So we have the same setup camera-wise, but different make-up teams on every show. Due to the complexity of the shoot, what leaves set is what gets distributed across the world to their affiliates, usually a day or two after. And we're talking about 10-16hrs of footage per day. This is the type of situation where we've had real problems with the make-up and no opportunity with further grading. We get a constant push for the Alexa due to this issue, but there are other workflow benefits keeping us with Red.

Anyhow, I'd be happy to save some shots of the next shoot to give to you guys, or even invite you down to see the issues first hand. Would love a built in solution, but we've been able to work around the problem somewhat. It just makes the Red an easy-to-dislike camera for some of the clients and the make-up teams, who are in the business of making sure their talent looks the best they can. Any camera that doesn't give the most flattering image gets demonized pretty quickly. I'm sure you understand.

 

[Bruce Allen]

There are colorists that have no problem correcting makeup whatsoever,and some that do.. it all depends how well they understand the process.

There was a test for Victoria Secret done a few months ago because they " heard " the same issues.. They had a ton of models with makeup come in with every skin tone range you could think of from pale to midnight dark skin, in tungsten, daylight and a few in-between lighting setups.

Within 30 minutes of the D.I with one of the best colorists/retouchers they put that to bed and were thrilled how great the skin tones were.. That was just one of many. We do hear of people having problems... but we hear much, much more that do not.

and CJ of course we are always eager to improve things... I just want to make sure it is clear, this is not a skin tone issue. it is a certain Makeup issue.

Jarred - do you have a link to any Victoria's Secret stuff shot on RED (that test is secret, I guess, but if they decided to use RED, they must have lots of publicly-viewable stuff done on it now?)? Also, did they test against film or was this a "digital cinema only" thing?

I'm still looking for examples of natural nice skin tones shot on RED for my "filmic color" thread.

Not sure if Victoria's Secret was going for a natural look though?

If it's the weird monotone sepia / orange skin "cool kids" look, I am not interested

BTW all digital stuff kinda looks similar to me - most skin tones threads seem to get into a weird Alexa battle and personally to me Epic and Alexa skin tones are quite similar! Film skin tones though... mmmm!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[CJ Roy]

Eric, CJ, we're always working on improving things. I'm testing new ideas almost daily looking for potential improvements. For anything related to colorimetry please feel free to contact me and get me to look at stuff. An R3D frame with details of lighting used, and makeup used (if that's relating to the issue) and hopefully a chart in shot will help me dig into things.

With respect to the Hobbit comments above, Peter's crew haven't contacted us about colorimetry issues because as Jarred points out, the issue is with the beam-splitter mirror and how it effects the light going through (or reflected of it) it before it touches the camera. They feel saturation compensation is best when saturation is lowered rather than raises, so by oomphing up the saturation of the scene, they're dropping saturation in post rather than raising it, leading to an image more to their liking.

Graeme

Thanks Graeme. I'll dig around and see if I have anything saved. If not, I'll definitely grab some on the next few shoots and get them to you. Much appreciated, and always a pleasure, Graeme.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

CJ - there's so much of this camera development stuff that's collaborative. And it goes both ways. I learn from DoP's and colourists, and when we come up with new things, we put them into the camera or software to share with our users. Ideally I'd like to be able to duplicate any makeup issue in a lab so that I can get the spectroradiometer on the skin both with and without makeup and see if I can analyze the issue....

Graeme

 

[Jarred Land]

Thanks CJ.. We have developed an extremely accurate sensor paired with some incredibly accurate color science. That accuracy can pick up everything. Sometimes that is off the charts great to pick up stuff that is hidden on other cameras.. sometimes not so great as in makeup it can pickup the slightest of variations.

The good thing is with most things.. it is easier to take away accuracy then to add it.. so its something Graeme is very keen on giving some dumbed down options... and those "tweaks" for lack of a better word is just part of the new additions to RCX-pro as you can see developing with Alchemy etc.

 

[CJ Roy]

CJ - there's so much of this camera development stuff that's collaborative. And it goes both ways. I learn from DoP's and colourists, and when we come up with new things, we put them into the camera or software to share with our users. Ideally I'd like to be able to duplicate any makeup issue in a lab so that I can get the spectroradiometer on the skin both with and without makeup and see if I can analyze the issue....

Graeme

Absolutely. Like I said, this is mainly with TV/sitcom type of make-up, so it's entirely possible you may not have come across it before. I haven't had the same issues as much with commercial or feature make-up teams. I'll see if Eric has his list of the certain brands of problematic make-up to get to you.

Your strive to always improve and make the image better is part of what makes Red so great and it's a appreciated.

 

[Jarred Land]

Jarred - do you have a link to any Victoria's Secret stuff shot on RED (that test is secret, I guess, but if they decided to use RED, they must have lots of publicly-viewable stuff done on it now?)? Also, did they test against film or was this a "digital cinema only" thing?

I'm still looking for examples of natural nice skin tones shot on RED for my "filmic color" thread.

Not sure if Victoria's Secret was going for a natural look though?

If it's the weird monotone sepia / orange skin "cool kids" look, I am not interested

BTW all digital stuff kinda looks similar to me - most skin tones threads seem to get into a weird Alexa battle and personally to me Epic and Alexa skin tones are quite similar! Film skin tones though... mmmm!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Couldn't get it... trust me I tried : ) . Some companies don't understand the needs for us geeks wanting their test footage for ' examination ' heh heh heh.

And yes a ton of stuff being shot by Victoria Secret on RED.

 

[CJ Roy]

Thanks CJ.. We have developed an extremely accurate sensor paired with some incredibly accurate color science. That accuracy can pick up everything. Sometimes that is off the charts great to pick up stuff that is hidden on other cameras.. sometimes not so great as in makeup it can pickup the slightest of variations.

The good thing is with most things.. it is easier to take away accuracy then to add it.. so its something Graeme is very keen on giving some dumbed down options... and those "tweaks" for lack of a better word is just part of the new additions to RCX-pro as you can see developing with Alchemy etc.

You're right. With the naked eye you can see the make-up differences, very faintly. It just shows up on camera as... enhanced? Maybe that's not the right word for it, but it would certainly cause you to scratch your head for a second. I'll try to get some good samples to you guys. I really do appreciate your constructive attention on this matter.

Thanks!

 

[CJ Roy]

I should also add, that I think a lot of the make-up teams are very used to it and have developed their method for cameras that hide a lot of the skintone information. It can be somewhat difficult to ask them to change their method.

 

[Antoine Fabi]

I can't believe how good the image and skin tones look from the Epic, color science / Alchemy combination.

There are tons of hard work and knowledge and testing behind all this...

I truly appreciate it , every time i use it...big smile.

Incredible.

Antoine

 

[Eric Haase]

CJ - there's so much of this camera development stuff that's collaborative. And it goes both ways. I learn from DoP's and colourists, and when we come up with new things, we put them into the camera or software to share with our users. Ideally I'd like to be able to duplicate any makeup issue in a lab so that I can get the spectroradiometer on the skin both with and without makeup and see if I can analyze the issue....

Graeme

Graeme, CJ and I will do our best to shoot some specific tests with charts, lighting diagrams, and measurements. We will have to piggyback on another shoot, mostly due to needing a proper makeup artist. I will also collect samples of footage from past projects that demonstrate what we are talking about. I'm excited to be able to have a productive discussion and help out.

Jarred, I've achieved great skin tones with RED. As an example, I've shot beauty spots for Dove soap and it's all about the skin. No dispute there. Skin tones can be graded as secondaries by a talented colorist to get exactly what we want. WIth this particular issue, only certain parts of the face show up as greener or more orange/yellow because the makeup used isn't airbrushed or it is being used in certain spots to conceal imperfections (or a 5 o'clock shadow). The problem is most apparent on RED versus other digital cameras. This patchiness can be difficult to grade. At the least it involves multiple windows and tracking, which is not practical for dailies, or finals with more limited grading sessions or numerous deliverables. As I'm sure you are aware, some projects use transcoded dailies from RCX as finals or just have an online editor touch up the color, which is a horrifying situation as a DP but that's a whole other discussion! Definitely looking forward to providing some detailed information and feedback so improvements can be made if necessary.

 

[Luc Bouvrette]

And yes a ton of stuff being shot by Victoria Secret on RED.

I love how this thread went from hairy feet Hobbits to polka dot panties.

 

[Bill Anderson]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but trying to nail down or alter a RED camera response to makeups, at least as a general fix, seems rather daunting: the many type of make ups, the batch shifts, the method and weight of application, foundation, the age of the makeup, the nature of the skin that the makeup is being applied to, the quality and type of lights being used, and all of the variables that that entails, might only provide for a very very narrow set of circumstances (Eric's) which are nonetheless still prone to variables. ????

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Bill, agreed on the complexity, but still worth looking into as there's things we may learn.

Graeme

 

[Eric Haase]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but trying to nail down or alter a RED camera response to makeups, at least as a general fix, seems rather daunting: the many type of make ups, the batch shifts, the method and weight of application, foundation, the age of the makeup, the nature of the skin that the makeup is being applied to, the quality and type of lights being used, and all of the variables that that entails, might only provide for a very very narrow set of circumstances (Eric's) which are nonetheless still prone to variables. ????

Maybe, but Graeme is a genius. It's possible that there are a few problem tones. We won't know until we try. I don't think the set of circumstances is actually that narrow.

 

[Bill Anderson]

Now how did I know that is what you would say... you are a rare one ( :

 

[alex lemon]

this thread is a great example of what is great about RED. love the responsiveness and openness of this company. thanks for the input Graeme and Jarred.

 

[paulherrin]

i'm kind of surprised at you guys complaining... you've been having this issue for awhile, i remember when it was first brought up. not everyone is having this issue, and not very many people at that. you guys are smart and have done a lot of testing. you've figured out which makeups are problematic. you've figured out that daylight balancing helps those makeups when they can't be reapplied. you can see the color distinction with your eyes on set. why is this somebody else's problem? you guys are smart, you know how to solve this problem on your shoots.

go ahead and talk with graeme, he knows more than any of us about the science of light and color and how it relates to camera technology. it just irks me when we have the ability to solve a problem, but try to place the blame elsewhere for somebody else to fix. i do it too guys, that's why it irks me. just shoot the stuff in a way that you know gets good results, it's really not that difficult is it?

 

[Eric Haase]

i'm kind of surprised at you guys complaining... you've been having this issue for awhile, i remember when it was first brought up. not everyone is having this issue. you guys are smart and have done a lot of testing. you've figured out which makeups are problematic. you've figured out that daylight balancing helps those makeups when they can't be reapplied. you can see the color distinction with your eyes. why is this somebody else's problem? you guys are smart, you know how to solve this problem on your shoots.

I don't think anyone is complaining. We are trying to figure out a solution that makes sense.

1) We have not found an acceptable solution. No matter what we do we cannot completely abate the problem and it has proven troublesome time and time again. It's not always possible to redo makeup or shoot under 5000K (which doesn't even solve it by the way) or shoot makeup tests. I'd guess these circumstances hold true for most professional commercial production.

2) Like it or not (I don't) RED has a reputation for not having nice skin tones. I think this makeup issue (however small or big you think it may be) has contributed and will continue to contribute to that (mis)perception. It would be nice to see if there is a color science tweak that can help. Again, this is not an issue with an Alexa or 5D. It's in your interest to help resolve this issue if you own a RED or have chosen to shoot RED because someday you may find yourself having to defend it on set, in front of celebrity talent and an expensive production staring at green patches on an actors face while the clock ticks forward. It's likely in RED's interest to look into it so they can produce the best looking images in all circumstances and continue to develop a good reputation for making cameras that do so.

3) One day maybe you'll encounter this problem on set. At the very least, NOW you'll know what to say so you don't get fired and you'll be able to try to alleviate it.

4) Not everyone is having this issue along with a lot of other issues posted about here. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix them.

 

[CJ Roy]

i'm kind of surprised at you guys complaining... you've been having this issue for awhile, i remember when it was first brought up. not everyone is having this issue, and not very many people at that. you guys are smart and have done a lot of testing. you've figured out which makeups are problematic. you've figured out that daylight balancing helps those makeups when they can't be reapplied. you can see the color distinction with your eyes on set. why is this somebody else's problem? you guys are smart, you know how to solve this problem on your shoots.

go ahead and talk with graeme, he knows more than any of us about the science of light and color and how it relates to camera technology. it just irks me when we have the ability to solve a problem, but try to place the blame elsewhere for somebody else to fix. i do it too guys, that's why it irks me. just shoot the stuff in a way that you know gets good results, it's really not that difficult is it?

I think that's an incredibly unfair criticism of us trying to bring a real problem to light and find its solution. There is a genuine problem with red sensors and television make-up and we've attempted to be constructive about it. Those make-up teams have been working for years with certain parameters and they're the only make-up artists that specific celebrity talent will allow to be used. Having them change their entire method for one or two days on a camera they rarely ever see isn't the easiest thing for them to do, or to be asked of them. The easiest solution would be to use a different camera.

The Red is great, but it's not perfect and there's always room for improvement. If this is the only camera having this issue, then it's the odd man out and it's easy to have the finger pointed at it and have suggested that something else be used. Don't mistake constructive criticism and genuine offers to help solve the issue as complaining, because that's certainly not the case here.