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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Peter Jackson's Hobbit blog...

Graeme Nattress said:
Peter, I think that's just the default look of the REDGamma2 / REDColor2 space. It's pretty quick and easy to adjust that in the settings. Being RAW, we're very flexible in the look on how you develop the image.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Graeme with all due respect to your genius, if it was 'quick and easy' to fix, this gajillion dollar production wouldn't be circumventing the issue by lopping tons of Red makeup onto the entire cast to work out the issue.

Now keep in mind I don't think Red has problem with saturation or vibrancy of colors because in the very same video Peter Jackson himself said that the super saturated colors of the forest will be 'toned down' in color grading so obviously the Red is registering those colors, but it's the skin tones in particular that have become a persistent issue of discussion especially amongst Red vs. Alexa debates and it's interesting that there seems to be confirmation perhaps even from this giant production that there are skin tone issues, to the extent that they have to put on extra layers of Red makeup which is to me unheard of!

Graeme I remember you saying how Red actually passes through a lot more Red than Alexa which in turn cuts more of the Red channel out. If this is true then why is it that they are having red channel issues ?? Inquiring minds want to know!
 
hmm, i wonder how this affects underwater work where so much red is lost at depth naturally? anyone?
 
Goto 9:44 in the video...Grab your red/blue 3D glasses and look at that illustration...Man, those guys are super talented. That is a way cool sketch. I love the resolution of the video even embedded in Facebook.
 
The bit where the guys explains the difference between 5K, 4K and 1080P...Classic :smiley:
 
After watching the blog, all I can think about is what a great match this film will be for the Red laser projector. If all the specs are real - 48fps, 3D on a projection system that doesn't require glasses. I mean WOW.
 
I think what the art department person is really saying is that those super saturated colours are applied because the creative colour grading done in post means that normally saturated colours would come out desaturated.

It's a byproduct of modern colour grading.

Watch some of the makeup DVD extras on Hellboy, Sin City or Pleasantville for examples of what I mean.

Cinematographers do colour tests prior to production to see which colours will register correctly at acquisition for post effects grading. In the case of LOTR, those saturated colours, when post processed, will look the way they want the skin etc to look in the cinema for the audience.

It's nothing more than that, and tech people trying to dumb the concept down for the average Joe to understand when watching the blog video.

Please don't blow this up into another "Red has crap colour reproduction because...." type FUD situation, when it clearly isn't.

If you want an antidote to Hollywood style Red originated teal and orange post processing, check out current Bollywood music videos also shot on Red. Two completely different styles, both originating from the same sensor. One is two tone pap, the other is bright, saturated and dazzling in its array of colour. Both are valid choices for their respective markets, and both have calculated pre-production colour palettes to service those looks.

HTH!

Cheers from Tokyo,

Paul :)

P.S. LOVE the Epic rigs on The Hobbit! :D
 
Peter Dmitriyev said:
Graeme with all due respect to your genius, if it was 'quick and easy' to fix, this gajillion dollar production wouldn't be circumventing the issue by lopping tons of Red makeup onto the entire cast to work out the issue.

Now keep in mind I don't think Red has problem with saturation or vibrancy of colors because in the very same video Peter Jackson himself said that the super saturated colors of the forest will be 'toned down' in color grading so obviously the Red is registering those colors, but it's the skin tones in particular that have become a persistent issue of discussion especially amongst Red vs. Alexa debates and it's interesting that there seems to be confirmation perhaps even from this giant production that there are skin tone issues, to the extent that they have to put on extra layers of Red makeup which is to me unheard of!

Graeme I remember you saying how Red actually passes through a lot more Red than Alexa which in turn cuts more of the Red channel out. If this is true then why is it that they are having red channel issues ?? Inquiring minds want to know!
Click to expand...


The Extra RED makeup has nothing to do with the camera color science... the mirrors in the 3D rig desaturate magenta from one eye ( tints green ) so instead of boosting back saturation in just one eye in post, they prefer to lift both eyes in saturation then remove it as necessary.

The exact same thing would happen to any camera through the 3D rig beamsplitter. one eye goes green , one eye goes magenta. Many ways to compensate for that, this is just one.
 
Jarred Land said:
The Extra RED makeup has nothing to do with the camera color science... the mirrors in the 3D rig desaturate magenta from one eye ( tints green ) so instead of boosting back saturation in just one eye in post, they prefer to lift both eyes in saturation then remove it as necessary.

The exact same thing would happen to any camera through the 3D rig beamsplitter. one eye goes green , one eye goes magenta. Many ways to compensate for that, this is just one.
Click to expand...

Why you don't post more, much more?
 
Jarred Land said:
The Extra RED makeup has nothing to do with the camera color science... the mirrors in the 3D rig desaturate magenta from one eye ( tints green ) so instead of boosting back saturation in just one eye in post, they prefer to lift both eyes in saturation then remove it as necessary.

The exact same thing would happen to any camera through the 3D rig beamsplitter. one eye goes green , one eye goes magenta. Many ways to compensate for that, this is just one.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jarred. I'd completely forgotten the 3d aspect.

Graeme
 
Jarred Land said:
The Extra RED makeup has nothing to do with the camera color science... the mirrors in the 3D rig desaturate magenta from one eye ( tints green ) so instead of boosting back saturation in just one eye in post, they prefer to lift both eyes in saturation then remove it as necessary.

The exact same thing would happen to any camera through the 3D rig beamsplitter. one eye goes green , one eye goes magenta. Many ways to compensate for that, this is just one.
Click to expand...


I think makeup choice when shooting RED has A LOT to do with color science. In this particular case I do not know as I am not involved and we are all gleaming information from an out of context 5 second video sound byte. However, I HAVE had numerous makeup issues with RED MX and EPIC color reproduction. Please read this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?55659-Makeup-showing-up-with-greenish-hue

It's really an issue for certain types of makeup. It is more pronounced shooting RED than other sensors. (Alexa, 5D) I've discussed this issue with many DITs in L.A. and NY and we have all seen it come up shoot after shoot for the past few years. I am not disparaging the camera or color science - I think it's important to acknowledge this and improve on it. For me, it's the one bummer about the camera and has created some tense situations on set (celebrity talent with their own makeup artist telling us this is the way she always does the person's makeup and has never had an issue). I really hope this can be considered for the future and improved upon. I'm happy to provide detailed information and assist in any way possible.
 
Eric is absolutely correct. A make-up artists' natural tendency is to add yellow based makeup to more red flesh tones. When you shoot on the Alexa or other cameras, it looks normal. But on the Red MX or the Epic sensors it comes out looking extremely yellow and green. The problem is very apparent when working with a television show's make-up team when doing promos or commercials. The problem isn't easily corrected on set and has to be done in further grading, unless we have the make-up team redo their make-up. Under tungsten lighting, the problem is even worse. I've had this problem on almost every job using yellow based make-up.
The other side affect is that the make-up will also have to be applied by airbrush to make the tones more uniform.

There's something about this type of make-up, which is the standard, which the Red sensors don't do well with. Almost as if it's picking up something else in the spectrum.
 
Eric Haase said:
I think makeup choice when shooting RED has A LOT to do with color science.
Click to expand...

I am referencing the comments in the video that this thread is talking about... Different pigments in different makeup is definitely a factor when it comes to color science, I am not discounting that, sorry if that is what it came across as.

But in regards to Peter Jackson and this video, and the way he is choosing to saturatenot only makeup but wardrobe and sets, is to compensate for a saturation change coming through the beamsplitter. We know.. because we asked :)
 
Jarred Land said:
I am referencing the comments in the video that this thread is talking about... Different pigments in different makeup is definitely a factor when it comes to color science, I am not discounting that, sorry if that is what it came across as.

But in regards to Peter Jackson and this video, and the way he is choosing to saturatenot only makeup but wardrobe and sets, is to compensate for a saturation change coming through the beamsplitter. We know.. because we asked :)
Click to expand...

Jarred- That's good to know. Is there a potential for the color science to be tweaked to help the problem Eric and I are referring to? I'm sure we'd both be happy to help in any tests. Eric's got good contact with a lot of the make-up artists who understand the issue.
 
CJ Roy said:
The problem isn't easily corrected on set and has to be done in further grading, unless we have the make-up team redo their make-up. Under tungsten lighting, the problem is even worse. I've had this problem on almost every job using yellow based make-up.
Click to expand...

Grading can only do so much, especially if the makeup is applied only in certain areas- like face but not neck, or beard concealer, or under the eyes. I've encountered all of these situations. It is difficult to ask a makeup artist to completely redo the actor's makeup, especially when it's celebrity talent and when you have a very limited window of time or overall tight schedule for the day. Politically it can be a disaster. There is no way to tell which makeup will be an issue without putting applied makeup in front of the camera. A lot of time we don't have the luxury to be able to shoot tests with that particular makeup artist and a stand in with matching skin tone. It's just not a reality in production. Occasionally we can convince the makeup artist (if available) to come to a pre-light and get the camera there and do some tests. This can cost money. The best we have been able to do in most situations is have a detailed conversation with the artist before the shoot about the types of problematic tones we have seen before and cross our fingers. I think it's important to realize how this issue affects daily production (including costs). It is a major concern of mine going into every shoot because it's such a gamble. We do everything we can to abate the problem but until there are improvements on the color science or sensor it will continue to be a concern.
 
There are colorists that have no problem correcting makeup whatsoever,and some that do.. it all depends how well they understand the process.

There was a test for Victoria Secret done a few months ago because they " heard " the same issues.. They had a ton of models with makeup come in with every skin tone range you could think of from pale to midnight dark skin, in tungsten, daylight and a few in-between lighting setups.

Within 30 minutes of the D.I with one of the best colorists/retouchers they put that to bed and were thrilled how great the skin tones were.. That was just one of many. We do hear of people having problems... but we hear much, much more that do not.

and CJ of course we are always eager to improve things... I just want to make sure it is clear, this is not a skin tone issue. it is a certain Makeup issue.
 
To suggest that this amount of makeup is needed to correct for skin tones is .... ( :
Boy, The Great Gatsby set must be one colorful place, filled with actors with red painted faces and a DP shouting out just how much he loves his camera. ( :
 
Eric, CJ, we're always working on improving things. I'm testing new ideas almost daily looking for potential improvements. For anything related to colorimetry please feel free to contact me and get me to look at stuff. An R3D frame with details of lighting used, and makeup used (if that's relating to the issue) and hopefully a chart in shot will help me dig into things.

With respect to the Hobbit comments above, Peter's crew haven't contacted us about colorimetry issues because as Jarred points out, the issue is with the beam-splitter mirror and how it effects the light going through (or reflected of it) it before it touches the camera. They feel saturation compensation is best when saturation is lowered rather than raises, so by oomphing up the saturation of the scene, they're dropping saturation in post rather than raising it, leading to an image more to their liking.

Graeme
 
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