People Renting Their Epic For Pocket Change

[Daniel Soderberg]

It really bums me out when I hear that a fellow Epic owner in my area is renting out both their Epic and Scarlet full packages plus two camera operators for a full day for just $500... It really sucks...

Like most people, I've invested a lot of money in my equipment, and if I have to make my rate lower than $500 for a similar package to compete, it will take years to make my money back...

Anyone else see the same thing happen in their city?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

This issue has at least three different angles...

1. Rentals as a business is quite similar all over the world. A basic day is calculated from 1,5 to 3,5% of the base investment (WorstCase "basic" stage 2 X package = 285$/day) And THEN one gets rebates for more than X days, often a week = 3 days.
Many of the lower renters have very basic kits.

2. Many with very basic kits and no extra bodies/warranties or solutions of any kind, try to rent their equipment at "large rentalhouse rates", which iss easily stupid for everyone. The serious houses give so much higher level of reliability and security for the productions that what one buy is a totally different product AND the cameras are often kitted out to cost 3-4 times a basic X package. Thus an "Epic" from a rental house can easilly be 1000$ a day from the same calculus (1,5%) that gave the 285$/day rental.
Problem by saying that "but the image is the same, so I'll take 1k$ too" is that the customers get a bad impression of the camera. The kitted up rentalhouse cameras are geared for "any" occatio. The basic X kit isn't.

3. If you are small/independant... Make sure people hire YOU and YOUR competence, not the kit. THAT will make the kit work and can make it worthwhile for them to spend the same amount on small kit + lots of competence. If you are good...

4. It's a hash and capitalistic world out there where supply and demand decides the prices as much as calculus... RED has democratisized film-making. That also means that there are many more cameras out there than what is used on a daily basis... And as an elctronic piece of metal, it has a limited "fresh" value, even whn put on a shelf. Because there comes the next canon/sony/arri/panny/even RED camera, and then noone will care (of course many will just use their cameras, but rentals are partly a fashion business. These days everyone wants anamorphic glass, Last year it was Cookes. In 2008 it was masters. Next year it's the Leicas. Guess what... There aren't many with limited turnover who can stommac that AND not go bancrupt. And if one for some "moral" reason should lose money rather than get whatever one can get, one will quickly go bust.

Smalltime RED kits (not implying tthat THAT is what you hhave, just that that is more of the norm) are basically owner/operator kit and not rental kits. I see people have totally funny expectations for rentals "because the camera has made images like Prometheus".
It's not about that. It's about finding viable businessmodels. And as far as I have been able to see: Rentals is a business of its own with (at times) quite conflicting interests to run a smaltime production company.
Not that the small company cannot rent, but that is a byproduct, and not a major income.

Nothing against keeping the prices good. But it has to be seen in context.
If I was to charge the same as Panavision, I should at least in some ways have an equal or better product.
And as I cannot build and support Primos, that product will have to be me. Not the camera...

That said... two operators and two cameras @ 500/day sounds like they aren't very good...

Just musing here...

 

[Daniel Soderberg]

Well said Gunleik, I completely agree. And I hope their packages aren't very complete and I hope I have more to offer

 

[Brad Webb]

I look at it like this. Let the bottom feeders take the low end business. Business that I honestly don't want because I know they won't have insurance and will probably treat the gear like shit.

 

[Timur Civan]

Check + brad.

Don't sweat it. That guy its working with low rent clients. Good clients want you. Camera is probably not on their minds. They usually let the DP decide what he or she wants to use.

I have yet tocome across a client that had said they will rent the camera from somewhere else because its cheaper.

 

[Rick Darge]

I agree but it is a free market after all. When I send quotes out for my Epic, I try to get as much as possible. Sometimes producers want it for cheap, and that's when I offer them the Red One MX... It's a different market now than what it was 4 years ago though. Sometimes I catch the big fish, othertimes productions just can't afford Epic but good thing they have me as the DP because if they are friends, and I really connect with the material, I'll give them the bonus of a lifetime. 4 years ago I would never do that but things have changed and so have my priorities. Can't knock someone else for going dirt cheap. Focus on your craft and that's all you can do because after all a camera is just a tool but and eyeball is irreplaceable.

 

[Curt Pair]

This issue has at least three different angles...

1. Rentals as a business is quite similar all over the world. A basic day is calculated from 1,5 to 3,5% of the base investment (WorstCase "basic" stage 2 X package = 285$/day) And THEN one gets rebates for more than X days, often a week = 3 days.
Many of the lower renters have very basic kits....

My man, you couldn't have said it any better... I do feel his pain... I have to compete, and keep hearing more and more are entering my marketplace... I explain, "one has to be able to operate that camera to get that look... that's what you're paying for!"

Thanks for the well spoken/written words!

 

[Jon Jones]

You're going to have to put your focus on customer service and support it would be better for your clients if you can keep a good business standard and a family name rather than rock bottom prices. Just wait till all the hype wears off from the red camera and people will come back to the solid companies that have good support and great customer service.

 

[Jon Jones]

I mean would you rather get your car at A south Broadway dealership called easy credit auto that sells all used cars or would you rather go to the dealership where you know you can get good service.

 

[Jon Carr]

Any RED rental for 500/day or less for a camera "package" better be a rental from a personal friend. Otherwise, it cheapens not just everyone, but also the camera in general. To me, these bottom feeders who think RED's should rent for if not cheaper then a DSLR are a plague who don't know what type of camera they own, nor truly know the value of the camera, nor invested as much as people with a complete package. All they care about is making a quick buck cause they are renting out something with the RED badging.

 

[T. Jordan]

People who rent out cameras plus themselves for $500 a day are setting an industry standard. This expecially goes for Scarlet camera owners. I see these guys popping up all over the place since Scarlet was released. They buy a scarlet and then start renting it out for dirt cheap so they can make back there $15k. This is only one of the reasons why our film industry is suffering. Where we're these guys when film was still being shot??

 

[T. Jordan]

You're going to have to put your focus on customer service and support it would be better for your clients if you can keep a good business standard and a family name rather than rock bottom prices. Just wait till all the hype wears off from the red camera and people will come back to the solid companies that have good support and great customer service.

Jon,

Sorry to say but producers and productions don't care about customer service and support
anymore. Your company just did a job in Oklahoma city for a client of mine which you supplied yourself as the DIT and your camera for dirt cheap. I'm sure they didn't hire you b/c you gave them great customer service and support. That was all about getting a camera locally at the last minute for the cheapest price possible.

 

[Gary Paul Walker]

The whole "You get what you pay for" argument aside, which is the most obvious and also the only argument that matters in it. People in a free market can set their own price, and should be free to conduct legal business as they see fit, and as suits their own economy.
You may not like it, it may cut into the way you like to do business, but I'm sure you'd hate people taking to forums talking about over-inflated rental costs designed to take advantage of filmmakers in areas where Red rentals are few and far between - which does go on just as much as the percieved under-valuing of rental prices for Scarlet and Epic packages.

Worrying that people who are trying to make a living with their camera are called 'bottom-feeders' and said to not know the value of the product they sell.

 

[Jon Jones]

No man, your wrong. My company did not provide dit and my camera for dirt cheap. First of all it's none of your business, and second of all. The dit guy was a friend of mine and I was doing him a favor by going out there and bringing my camera, and only making $800 that day instead of the standard $1000 that I charge for my epic. Also it wasn't in Oklahoma city. I hate it when people point fingers first instead of asking questions first. Those are the real bottoms feeders.

Jon,

Sorry to say but producers and productions don't care about customer service and support
anymore. Your company just did a job in Oklahoma city for a client of mine which you supplied yourself as the DIT and your camera for dirt cheap. I'm sure they didn't hire you b/c you gave them great customer service and support. That was all about getting a camera locally at the last minute for the cheapest price possible.

 

[Jon Jones]

And secondly, I will never rent to them again, but that's none of your business either.

Jon,

Sorry to say but producers and productions don't care about customer service and support
anymore. Your company just did a job in Oklahoma city for a client of mine which you supplied yourself as the DIT and your camera for dirt cheap. I'm sure they didn't hire you b/c you gave them great customer service and support. That was all about getting a camera locally at the last minute for the cheapest price possible.

 

[Björn Benckert]

People who rent out cameras plus themselves for $500 a day are setting an industry standard. This expecially goes for Scarlet camera owners. I see these guys popping up all over the place since Scarlet was released. They buy a scarlet and then start renting it out for dirt cheap so they can make back there $15k. This is only one of the reasons why our film industry is suffering. Where we're these guys when film was still being shot??

You mean that the film industry is suffering from lower production costs and a greater supply of cameras...? Explain?

I think some of the guys where still in high school when film was shot, needless to say, I do not think they will sit around with their new bought camera on the shelf, they will go out there and try to make any coin they can off that Skate/surf film camera that they just bought. I believe that looking back and wishing to get the 3k USD/day basic camera pack rentals prices back will not do much good. It's the same digital revolution that swiped trough the music industry, some dinosaurs not willing to change will be flushed out for sure.

 

[T. Jordan]

No man, your wrong. My company did not provide dit and my camera for dirt cheap. First of all it's none of your business, and second of all. The dit guy was a friend of mine and I was doing him a favor by going out there and bringing my camera, and only making $800 that day instead of the standard $1000 that I charge for my epic. Also it wasn't in Oklahoma city. I hate it when people point fingers first instead of asking questions first. Those are the real bottoms feeders.

My apologies Jon, I shouldn't have commented. Please forgive me!

 

[Joe Kleber]

I look at it like this. Let the bottom feeders take the low end business. Business that I honestly don't want because I know they won't have insurance and will probably treat the gear like shit.

Probably?

 

[M Most]

It's the same digital revolution that swiped trough the music industry, some dinosaurs not willing to change will be flushed out for sure.

Well, as I recall and as I currently see it, the "digital revolution" basically destroyed the music industry to the point that the primary and often only source of significant income to musicians today is live performance. Recording is no longer a source of income, it's basically PR for the live performances. So destroying an industry is probably not the example one might want to use here.

 

[Jon Jones]

Of course Tom. Sorry for calling you a bottom feeder. Sometimes I am my own worst enemy. Those guys that rented from me asked for the brain only, and me being new in this whole rental game didn't realize that I was the one at fault for not providing ala cart gear for them from the get go. I did end up bringing all of my gear out there though. So now were envoicing them for ala cart items that I had to have to make the brain even work.

My apologies Jon, I shouldn't have commented. Please forgive me!