People Renting Their Epic For Pocket Change

[Shane Kelly]

It really bums me out when I hear that a fellow Epic owner in my area is renting out both their Epic and Scarlet full packages plus two camera operators for a full day for just $500... It really sucks...

Like most people, I've invested a lot of money in my equipment, and if I have to make my rate lower than $500 for a similar package to compete, it will take years to make my money back...

Anyone else see the same thing happen in their city?

I would imagine that it happens everywhere. Last week I got a call from a young producer asking for a rental price for my epic. I gave him a quote and he came back with: " I think I can get it elsewhere for $500". I told him that he should go with the $500 quote. I simply cannot let $50,000 worth of equipment go out the door for $500. The wear and tear on the camera used by inexperienced people is not worth it.
However, I do understand that scarlet owners want to get out there and shoot, and make some money back on their $15k. There's no harm in that. It's better to make something sometimes than having a camera sitting on a shelf. It really is simple supply and demand, there's more cameras out there so there's more people willing to give away the camera for a low price.
I bought my camera to make my work better and I charge a realistic rate for it when I dp. I do make about 25% of my yearly income on sub-rentals but I'd hate to be dependent on rentals alone.
I don't really see a solution to the lowering of rental prices other than the possibility that the lowballers will not be able to sustain such a business model. I'll not hold my breath waiting on that to happen.

 

[Brad Webb]

And secondly, I will never rent to them again, but that's none of your business either.

This is why me and my gear don't go out on jobs that pay ridiculously low. From my experience it always seems that the less a client is paying the more they want.

 

[Paul S.]

People who rent out cameras plus themselves for $500 a day are setting an industry standard. This expecially goes for Scarlet camera owners. I see these guys popping up all over the place since Scarlet was released. They buy a scarlet and then start renting it out for dirt cheap so they can make back there $15k. This is only one of the reasons why our film industry is suffering. Where we're these guys when film was still being shot??

It's also simple economics. The industry isn't suffering (quite the contrary); only those who set their stall out before technology moved on and who would ask the tide to recede. Frankly, if rental prices for a $15,000 were much higher, renters would just buy the damn thing then sell them on when they're done. And then we'd all be on here moaning about resale prices...

 

[Paul Hudson]

The real problem here is an over supply of cameras. Twenty years ago there were far fewer Arri SR's and BL IV's in the market. Because of this rental rates were higher and remained stable for years. Couple this with the need of film cameras to be constantly being maintained and adjusted with specialized tools you only rented from one or two rental houses in every large town.

 

[Andrew clemson]

Happy to report that this is the same world over. There are people with zero experience here, renting full production packages including "DIT" Epic and lenses for little more than my day rate.

A large percentage of producers don't seem to give a flying rats ass about quality, they just want cheap.

Im seriously thinking about changing careers!

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

Well, as I recall and as I currently see it, the "digital revolution" basically destroyed the music industry to the point that the primary and often only source of significant income to musicians today is live performance. Recording is no longer a source of income, it's basically PR for the live performances. So destroying an industry is probably not the example one might want to use here.

This is a great thread I hope young kids can read this and change a course of action for themselves before running into a trap. But then again the way the world is going we'll all run into it.

If I don't make it to the top 85% in my field by the end of this decade I'm definitely switching careers. I've said that a few times on set with younger crew and they got shook.

It's true though. Everyday I see someone trying to be a DP since they bought whatever NEW Digital camera and trying to break in. Each year as more cameras come out it seems that more people have gear compared to the amount of work available. Now I look at content online and it looks like crap. Everything is so fast paced now we don't even have dailies to discuss the project and how to make it better for tmrw.

Content is being turned around and consumed faster than before. Godfather took years to make one movie, now they're placing bets who can put out a trilogy in the less amount of time and produce the most income, you can thank Michael Bay for proving it and putting down Lucas on his Prequel Trilogy. And which Trilogy do you think is best?

Prometheus came out weeks ago and I'm already hearing rumors for the Blu-Ray it's nuts, why go to the movies if I can see it months from release?

Production budgets have become microscopical and the gap between Indi and HighEnd is growing. I'm really curious what the average Budget is for a Hollywood film these days.

It's sad that Digital has made Cinematography much easier so the skill set is looked down upon.

A close 1 AC friend of mine joke about this DP from NYC who came down shot a feature for $500. They where doing behind the scenes bull crap interview and he said "with a 5D Mark II and a china ball your at the level of Hollywood" we couldn't stop laughing and talking mad shit about it. This was three years ago little did we know.

It's better for the average person cause they get a shot to tell their story but whats the point if everybody and their mom is taking it, through probability alone your out numbered. Where's the storytelling renaissance I heard Digital was suppose to trigger?

Is it gonna come down to independent distribution? Yet we still rely on FilmFestivals to weed out the bad harvest. And if it is a worthy film, chances are it gets bought for cheap cause the creator has no outlet for it. I spoke to the coordinator of the Austin Film Festival and she said the content being submitted has more than tripled in the past year and over 2/3 of it is horrible poop on crap content.

Tyler the Creator gives his rap for free since he knows it's worth nothing and has a net-worth of 3 Million, all through a clothing and skate label "Odd Future" and yes touring.

It sucks but the term broke artist is gonna be more common especially since making a movie is nearly impossible for indi-folk and have no way to create a substitute market to make up for it. Again Star Wars and Transformers have toys which is a killer market. What will indi-filmmakers substitute be, touring? Coppola certainly tried it but we aren't all Coppola.

My dad is a Journalist and Commercial Photographer and it's been devastating to see where the market has gone. All of his income is mainly through his Fine Art since it speaks leaps and bounds from what all these hipsters are trying to produce and push on us. Only two of his Photographer friends still shoot and the rest have moved on to find better coal to mine.

There are Photographers who are fine with low-pay jobs, they'd just rather be shooting than in an office or selling shoes. I get it, but is that where film is headed?

I guess what I'm saying if you're 18 about to graduate from High School and thinking about making movies just be ready for a reality check. Unless you really have a divine love for filmmaking and know it's what you want to grow with, for rich or for poor then say "I do"

 

[Cid J Salcido Uyarra]

This is why me and my gear don't go out on jobs that pay ridiculously low. From my experience it always seems that the less a client is paying the more they want.

LOL we all have to learn that lesson at one point, the earlier the better. lets just hope your gear makes it back alive and ready for the proper job

 

[Nick Morrison]

This is a great thread. I can totally relate, not as a DP. But as promo producer, and indie director/producer.

As a promo producer, I see this "revolution" all the time. Young guys and girls who...armed with Final Cut and a laptop...think they are "editors". They they arrive at the fast paced world of Broadcast Cable promos...and get ground into mince meat. Because it turns out that experience is irreplaceable, and having a solid back ground in your craft can save you when are stuck in a corner.

Case in point: most seasoned editors I work with know how to engineer all the decks we work with. When they have a problem, they can usually fix it themselves w/out having to call an engineer. At 2am when you are laying off a project, this can mean life or death. A sizeable portion of the younger editors have much less mechanical experience with decks, if any. And some of the really young editors who've only worked on web content, have never even LAID TO TAPE when they get here.

Blows my mind.

And don't get me started with DSLRs. I own two, and I've shot a lot of content with them. But we tried to treat them like real cameras, and invested heavily in glass, and other accessories. I've shot all my projects on all manual Contax glass because I wanted a consistent, classic look across everything. And we were shooting on 3 camera or more sometimes. It was a big investment. But I've met countless people who think they can light the world on fire with a Canon T3i and a kit zoom.

Technlology has leveled the playing field. It's also made everyone feel like they are an "editor" or "director" the minute they buy the tool they need to get them started. There was a recent poll NPR quoted that showed that the younger generation is much more narcissistic, and much more inclined to want to "be famous". I think there is something to that. People buy a DSLR now and instantly think of how famous it can make them. Not of the 10 years experience it will take them to really master their craft...and stand out.

But standards are changing, too. People are happy to watch crap on Youtube. And I've seen people get hired from Youtube crap to work on commercials (supported by REAL crews mind you).

But I still stand by the notion that only craft, experience and yes talent will get you to the promised land. You want to make REAL money? I mean REAL money? Know your shit.

And work with great tools, as you can slowly afford them. We know have two Scarlets. I never want to see a DSLR again. That was so 2011.

 

[PatrickFaith]

... Technology has leveled the playing field. It's also made everyone feel like they are an "editor" or "director" the minute they buy the tool they need to get them started. There was a recent poll NPR quoted that showed that the younger generation is much more narcissistic, and much more inclined to want to "be famous". I think there is something to that. People buy a DSLR now and instantly think of how famous it can make them. Not of the 10 years experience it will take them to really master their craft...and stand out...

bit of a rant on people some how thinking they don't have to learn when they have digital processing:

I get this all the time, people says they wish they had a job like mine ... along the lines it would be so great to learn and problem solve all day long .... blah blah blah. I simply ask, do you know python ... they say no 99% of the time ... I say all our processes are python based that I work on ... they now stare at me ... i say there are tons of jobs like mine if they understand sample theory, python, and processing streams ... i get more of a stare. i say you can go to lynda.com and learn python in a week ... they normally now say something which is basically a passive aggressive statement which is a refusal to learn.

So the problem right now is people are buying the hardware but not upgrading their brains, thus the weird economic things we are seeing.

 

[Christopher Mills]

Somehow, my 25 years of experience keeps on making me able to earn a living....
I do turn down jobs that are not cost effective, or that would not be profitable..
I *try* to never take rates that would make cross rental of replacement tools impossible...
I am not really willing to post rates out there for all potential customers to look at, because i do not rent out tools without my labor in most cases (exceptions are to close friends with the ability to look after my gear).

Also, in abid situation, I am evaluating the desirability of the job and the client... not just their willingness to meet a rate quote.

And yes, what I have to offer is a twofold business model..
Hiring my skills and abilities, and paying me to provide technical resources (tools)

 

[Jon Jones]

Did I say $800 for that day, I meant $950 if you count ala cart. I brought my EPIC out and brought home $950. I do consider that low-ball, but then again it was only half day, so not bad at all. I don't do the whole super low ball stuff, but someone will, and if dinosaurs won't do something about it and lower their prices then they will become extinct. I'm not saying I like the whole $500 a day bullcrap, because that's what it is, and I do not like it at all. I'm just sayin that's where all this is going. We can't just put our heads in the sand and pretend like it isn't happening.

No man, your wrong. My company did not provide dit and my camera for dirt cheap. First of all it's none of your business, and second of all. The dit guy was a friend of mine and I was doing him a favor by going out there and bringing my camera, and only making $800 that day instead of the standard $1000 that I charge for my epic. Also it wasn't in Oklahoma city. I hate it when people point fingers first instead of asking questions first. Those are the real bottoms feeders.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Did I say $800 for that day, I meant $950 if you count ala cart. I brought my EPIC out and brought home $950. I do consider that low-ball, but then again it was only half day, so not bad at all. I don't do the whole super low ball stuff, but someone will, and if dinosaurs won't do something about it and lower their prices then they will become extinct. I'm not saying I like the whole $500 a day bullcrap, because that's what it is, and I do not like it at all. I'm just sayin that's where all this is going. We can't just put our heads in the sand and pretend like it isn't happening.

SO Dinosaurs are all those who refuse to join the race to the bottom? I hope that's not what you meant.

I was at Berkeley recently for a talk , and some douche bag / wind bag communications professor told me that "The new media economy is free - ideas are free - to be expected to be paid renders one a dinosaur". I asked him how I was supposed to make a living He said what all these fatuous academic windbags do "You have to innovate new business models," I asked him "Well what kind of business model can you build around not being paid and $0?" He looked at me with paternalistic condescension, and said "You only ask because you are not innovative enough."

I think he had no clue how close he came to getting punched in the face.

 

[Cliff Hokanson]

Well its kids that the parents gave them the cash or daddy gave them a line of Credit.
So all my gear is paid off so Free Steadicam with any Epic rentals need a jib arm with remote head. Lets Make A Movie!!!

www.cliffswebsite.com

 

[George Tsai]

SO Dinosaurs are all those who refuse to join the race to the bottom? I hope that's not what you meant.

I was at Berkeley recently for a talk , and some douche bag / wind bag communications professor told me that "The new media economy is free - ideas are free - to be expected to be paid renders one a dinosaur". I asked him how I was supposed to make a living He said what all these fatuous academic windbags do "You have to innovate new business models," I asked him "Well what kind of business model can you build around not being paid and $0?" He looked at me with paternalistic condescension, and said "You only ask because you are not innovative enough."

I think he had no clue how close he came to getting punched in the face.

Part of education and advancing ahead is challenging what we know. Don't be so quick to discard what the professor said, because it sounds like to me he is challenging you to think outside the box. There is actually quite a lot of truth to what he says. The internet has undoubtely changed the way the market works. If I want to learn somthing or read up on information I can more than likely find it on the internet, free. Sure once you get to a certain level or very specific information it becomes harder to find without paying for it, but just take a look at the wealth of information here on reduser.

Good example is I know several youtube artists that started off just uploading videos for fun, some informative some for the sake of entertainment. A good number of them never expected to make money off of it. Couple years later, a lot of them are making 6 figures + from advertisments, all the while keeping their content free to the viewers. And as a result these artists has paid for my services to help make some of their video.

Market is and has been constantly morphing and changing, and sometime traditional business models doesnt work as well anymore. And there are those who take a giant leap in creating a new model, and often end up spending a fortune to get it started(not geting paid), and sometimes it works.

Now this isn't an argument for joining the race to the bottom, just wanted to bring a bit of validity to your professors statment. Just remember, scholars used to scoff at physicist with what was considered wild and completely impossible theories without giving it a second thought. Yet today many accept those theories as the best plausible explanation we've got

 

[PatrickFaith]

S
I was at Berkeley recently for a talk , and some douche bag / wind bag communications professor told me that "The new media economy is free - ideas are free - to be expected to be paid renders one a dinosaur". I asked him how I was supposed to make a living He said what all these fatuous academic windbags do "You have to innovate new business models," I asked him "Well what kind of business model can you build around not being paid and $0?" He looked at me with paternalistic condescension, and said "You only ask because you are not innovative enough."

LMAO ... INNOVATIVE BUSINESS MODEL ??? that professor's business model is Byzantine... i.e. letters/phd allows him to receive money from disciples and requires indenture ship for a few years through a process of getting letters approved via councils. Next time ask him how he is going to compete with lynda.com.

 

[Jon Jones]

Bob, certainly no, thats not what i meant. I dont encourage any sort of race to the bottom, at all. Right now the media industry is in a period of transformation, im simply saying that we need to keep an open mind of change, to some degree in order to keep fighting the good fight. We wouldnt want these 20 year old kids coming in here with millions of dollars of gear and renting it all out for chump change just to get rid of the old blood. They say that 80% of millionares in the US are first generation rich, why? Because of innovation. We have got to be innovative enough in this industry to stay in it. Especially this industry!

Ah this reminds me of a centuries old secret orginization that used a series of handshakes and phrases to identify one another in order to keep the ways of its trade a secret so that no other orginization could do what they did, maybe we need a Masons type of orginization or something?

SO Dinosaurs are all those who refuse to join the race to the bottom? I hope that's not what you meant.

I was at Berkeley recently for a talk , and some douche bag / wind bag communications professor told me that "The new media economy is free - ideas are free - to be expected to be paid renders one a dinosaur". I asked him how I was supposed to make a living He said what all these fatuous academic windbags do "You have to innovate new business models," I asked him "Well what kind of business model can you build around not being paid and $0?" He looked at me with paternalistic condescension, and said "You only ask because you are not innovative enough."

I think he had no clue how close he came to getting punched in the face.

 

[Jon Jones]

At any rate at all, that professor is a d-bag. He forgets what its like to have to work for money, now that he's been talking for cash for so long.

 

[Paul S.]

This is not a race to the bottom. It's simply the cost of the gear becoming cheaper. A race towards the equilibrium of changed barriers to entry.

Comparisons with the music industry in general are not appropriate - it's not to do with digital distribution or piracy or whatever. The comparison you need to make is with professional recording studios. The valve consoles and Pro Tools suites out there now you can record cheaply and professionally for peanuts these days. I believe any beef here is with RED for making a very good camera affordable by the masses.

The role of DP has not become an unskilled job, however, so if you're good at what you do there will always be a market for that skill. It's just that there will also open up a market for cheaper jobs that would have used a lesser camera before RED cameras became affordable. Just don't take those jobs if they are beneath you.

 

[Ash Worth]

Perhaps with lower prices more people use the RED cameras, get more comfortable with them, learn how to use them, are not intimidated by the technology etc. This is true in our case, we rent the EPIC for what we were renting a $12,000 camera for a couple of years ago and are now considering purchasing. Had rentals been in the four figure daily rate this might not have been the case. Cheap does't always mean bad. Plus unless you are a rental house I don't think it's a good business model to buy a camera and just rent it.

 

[Timur Civan]

Well the truth is, undercutting your gear means it becomes far more difficult to maintain your investment. No one believes it, but saying no small crappy jobs and maintaining your rates keeps you on the radar of better productions.