PCCS5 Adventure begins

[Olivier Madar]

OK,

I am fed up with Apple, their delirious prices and turning their backs to innovations...

So, I build my own PC, (at LDLC for french people) with :
- Intel Core i7 Extreme Edition 980X - 6 Core
- Win7
- Adaptec 1430SA - Carte contrôleur PCI-Express 4x 2x1T samsung raid 0
- NVIDIA GeForce avec CUDA GTX 480
- ASUS Rampage III Extreme
- Corsair SSD 256 Go 64 Mo
- DVD burner, blue ray (of course), 24 G RAM, eizo LCD, Adobe creative suite, antec and so... for 6 700 euros

Let us see what it will produce and be compared to FCP workflow.

Talk to you soon


Olivier

 

[David Birdy]

Let us know how this turns out.. How much Ram are you going to use?

Are you going with W7 64?

Total price?

 

[Olivier Madar]

Let us know how this turns out.. How much Ram are you going to use?

Are you going with W7 64?

Total price?

- 24 Gigas
- W7 64
- 6 700 euros (about 8 300 USD)

 

[Martin Weiss]

I'm also slowly moving in that direction. Would love to hear of your experiences.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I like your config. Perhaps you could consider dropping GTX 480 1.5 GB for 2 x GTX 460 2GB SLI. It depends largely on the software as to how well performance scales in SLI, and this is a bit of an unknown especially for CUDA. If it scales well, getting GTX 460 SLI over a GTX 480 is a no-brainer, especially since your motherboard supports SLI.

 

[Olivier Madar]

I like your config. Perhaps you could consider dropping GTX 480 1.5 GB for 2 x GTX 460 2GB SLI. It depends largely on the software as to how well performance scales in SLI, and this is a bit of an unknown especially for CUDA. If it scales well, getting GTX 460 SLI over a GTX 480 is a no-brainer, especially since your motherboard supports SLI.

We need more infos from Adobe (or from fortunate redusers) for that kind of choices. Not sure at all it be any benefits.


Olivier

 

[sander kamp]

What codecs are you using on the PC side?

There's Quicktime of course but it doesn't work the same as on Mac, and then there's various codecs that need to be installed before they can be used and can be conflicting and you need them on every system you work or send work to.

 

[Olivier Madar]

What codecs are you using on the PC side?

There's Quicktime of course but it doesn't work the same as on Mac, and then there's various codecs that need to be installed before they can be used and can be conflicting and you need them on every system you work or send work to.

It has been one of the obstacle toward change.
1) You can still use ProRes and make a smooth transition beetwen Aplle and PC
2) If you are fortunate, you can buy cineform (nearly half the price of the full production suite Adobe)
3) You can find other codecs lossly for free if needed


Olivier

 

[Jay Gannon]

For that money I would get a HP Z800, well constructed and warranty backed.
I built computers all my life and still do but the Z800 blew me away, if I was building a PC system at the moment it would be that or a BOXX system.

 

[sander kamp]

But ProRes on the PC is not the full 4444 or is it? And can you write and read? From my PC experience I know it doesn't work as smooth as on a Mac though.

Hmm Cineform. Heard good things about it. But I find it kind of scary that you're locked in into a codec that you have to pay for otherwise you can't use it anymore. You know there's going to be a day that you need that footage to play on another system that doesn't have Cineform, or your computer is crashed and you need to have that file now...

And any other codec you have to find on the internet and try and see if it doesn't install anything else or locks up your system. And then you send a file to somebody else who can't play it... Right? Or has this all changed since the last time I used a PC?

 

[Subhadip Sen]

We need more infos from Adobe (or from fortunate redusers) for that kind of choices. Not sure at all it be any benefits.

Olivier

Yes, I would guess there are no SLI benefits as of now. But it could come any time. Still, it is hard to justify the GTX 480, but if you want outright performance, then I guess it is the only option. I hope Adobe is moving to support ATI graphics cards soon.

There are hundreds of codecs on the PC. Personally, I work 100% natively and never transcode before the final render/output. However, sometimes, you may need an intermediate, for which I use lossless codecs (free) Lagarith or UT. UT is similar in compression and speed to ProRes 4444 except it is 100% lossless. Lagarith is much slower, but compresses more. Still no problem for a six-core CPU and a SSD. I stay away from lossy codecs like Cineform, DNxHD or ProRes.

Most deliverable codecs have cross platform support. PC does not have a ProRes encoder however. The only codec which I can think of which could be an issue is XDCAM Quicktime. But even that has a commercial decoder available.

 

[sander kamp]

\Personally, I work 100% natively and never transcode before the final render/output.

With natively you mean R3D? Do you use that for editing?

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

With natively you mean R3D? Do you use that for editing?

Isn't that the point of the ability to lower R3D resolution in Premiere? Who needs more than HD for simple cuts anyway?

If I'm missing something feel free to educate me.

Yes, I would guess there are no SLI benefits as of now. But it could come any time. Still, it is hard to justify the GTX 480, but if you want outright performance, then I guess it is the only option. I hope Adobe is moving to support ATI graphics cards soon.

There are hundreds of codecs on the PC. Personally, I work 100% natively and never transcode before the final render/output. However, sometimes, you may need an intermediate, for which I use lossless codecs (free) Lagarith or UT. UT is similar in compression and speed to ProRes 4444 except it is 100% lossless. Lagarith is much slower, but compresses more. Still no problem for a six-core CPU and a SSD. I stay away from lossy codecs like Cineform, DNxHD or ProRes.

Most deliverable codecs have cross platform support. PC does not have a ProRes encoder however. The only codec which I can think of which could be an issue is XDCAM Quicktime. But even that has a commercial decoder available.

Subhadip, how do you deal with footage within AE?

Is it necessary to transcode if you don't have a Rocket or can you work decently just by lowering resolution of the footage?

I just found out my trial CS5 ingests R3Ds natively, cool, quarter res handles pretty well.

I just need the Importer now.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Isn't that the point of the ability to lower R3D resolution in Premiere? Who needs more than HD for simple cuts anyway?

If I'm missing something feel free to educate me.

Subhadip, how do you deal with footage within AE?

Is it necessary to transcode if you don't have a Rocket or can you work decently just by lowering resolution of the footage?

I just found out my trial CS5 ingests R3Ds natively, cool, quarter res handles pretty well.

I just need the Importer now.

I must clarify that I was speaking for the Windows platform as a whole. I use Sony Vegas x64. However, I have given Adobe CS5 an extensive trial, and much of what I have said applies to CS5. In fact, even more so.

The best part is dynamic link. All you need to do is drag and drop R3D into your Premiere Pro sequence. Need to do process it in AE? Just right-click on the clip and select "Replace with After Effects" (or whatever it says). After Effects opens up, you do your work, save it, and your composition will show up in Premiere Pro as the clip you left. As simple as that. No need for any kind of transcode. I don't work with After Effects, but for someone who does, it's an essential feature. In case you need work done outside CS5, simply transcode to a lossless codec. Or maybe even Uncompressed?

I have never worked with Rocket, but on an overclocked Intel quad core, half-res works just fine. With some effects applied, I have to drop it to quarter-res, but even that is more than enough. This is without a CUDA GPU, by the way. When paused, or navigating frame by frame, it switches to full res. The final render can take ages, especially if rendering to 4K lossless. I feel it is worth the wait, though, and is a one-time thing at the end of the project anyway. I can't say this from experience though, as I have never done a real project at 4K.

In one month of testing, I didn't experience a single crash. It is the most stable NLE I have tried/used.

 

[Olivier Madar]

But ProRes on the PC is not the full 4444 or is it? And can you write and read? From my PC experience I know it doesn't work as smooth as on a Mac though.

The Rocket can go into a PC, so I think It will be able to write and read ProRes (maybe, I will need the quicktime "pro" version)

Hmm Cineform. Heard good things about it. But I find it kind of scary that you're locked in into a codec that you have to pay for otherwise you can't use it anymore. You know there's going to be a day that you need that footage to play on another system that doesn't have Cineform, or your computer is crashed and you need to have that file now...

You are right. Another disavantage of Cineform is that you don't have 1 cineform, you have to choose the right version of the cineform and manage a floating license for being able to change from a computer to another. That is too many weight for the essence, the heart, of what we create.

And any other codec you have to find on the internet and try and see if it doesn't install anything else or locks up your system. And then you send a file to somebody else who can't play it... Right? Or has this all changed since the last time I used a PC?

I agree too. What about "native" codec Adobe seems to use if you don't specify any codec ?

 

[Olivier Madar]

There are hundreds of codecs on the PC. Personally, I work 100% natively and never transcode before the final render/output. However, sometimes, you may need an intermediate, for which I use lossless codecs (free) Lagarith or UT. UT is similar in compression and speed to ProRes 4444 except it is 100% lossless. Lagarith is much slower, but compresses more. Still no problem for a six-core CPU and a SSD. I stay away from lossy codecs like Cineform, DNxHD or ProRes.

Most deliverable codecs have cross platform support. PC does not have a ProRes encoder however. The only codec which I can think of which could be an issue is XDCAM Quicktime. But even that has a commercial decoder available.

The question of the codec in the PC is the first problem i shall have to fix. What is the intermediate codec used by premiere for prerendering ? Should have a name and caracteristics.
In theoryProRes is "only" lossless. In fact, i think i can't see any difference with 2 or 3 generations
I never tryed Lagarith and UT but for sure, I will try them
XDCAM ? I am far away from Sony at this time, so I won't try that way.

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

But the Cineform decoder is free. You only need to pay to ENCODE.

http://estore.cineform.com/neoplayer.aspx

The question of the codec in the PC is the first problem i shall have to fix. What is the intermediate codec used by premiere for prerendering ? Should have a name and caracteristics.
In theoryProRes is "only" lossless. In fact, i think i can't see any difference with 2 or 3 generations
I never tryed Lagarith and UT but for sure, I will try them
XDCAM ? I am far away from Sony at this time, so I won't try that way.

That's a good question. I have no idea what is the codec that Adobe uses for this, if it even has a name.

With mainly simple HDV editing I don't ever recall having to render on Premiere.

 

[Olivier Madar]

I must clarify that I was speaking for the Windows platform as a whole. I use Sony Vegas x64. However, I have given Adobe CS5 an extensive trial, and much of what I have said applies to CS5. In fact, even more so.

The best part is dynamic link. All you need to do is drag and drop R3D into your Premiere Pro sequence. Need to do process it in AE? Just right-click on the clip and select "Replace with After Effects"

In one month of testing, I didn't experience a single crash. It is the most stable NLE I have tried/used.

These are why I want to change. And the fact that it should be much more expensive in the Mac universe

 

[Olivier Madar]

But the Cineform decoder is free. You only need to pay to ENCODE.

http://estore.cineform.com/neoplayer.aspx



That's a good question. I have no idea what is the codec that Adobe uses for this, if it even has a name.

With mainly simple HDV editing I don't ever recall having to render on Premiere.

OK the decoder is free, but without the license you can't be able to change anything. And what cineform will you buy ?

NeoScene v5 ? mac ? PC ? both ?
NeoHD v5 ? mac ? PC ? both ?
NeoHD v5 ? mac ? PC ? both ?
Neo4K v5 ? mac ? PC ? both ?
Neo3D v5 ? mac ? PC ? both ?

And before there were other versions and others names, and they disappears. So what ? 2 or 3 years later, what will you able to do ????

The risk is too big for me.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

The question of the codec in the PC is the first problem i shall have to fix. What is the intermediate codec used by premiere for prerendering ? Should have a name and caracteristics.
In theoryProRes is "only" lossless. In fact, i think i can't see any difference with 2 or 3 generations
I never tryed Lagarith and UT but for sure, I will try them
XDCAM ? I am far away from Sony at this time, so I won't try that way.

Olivier, it is a great myth that ProRes is "visually lossless". The fact of the matter is it is a lossy codec. In fact, it throws away an alarming amount of information! Check this difference test: http://thomasberglund.no/misc/codecwars09/. The grabs indicate how much information is thrown away or lost. ProRes 4444 is the only acceptable codec, in my opinion. That is why, I always, always, stick to a lossless codec. But of course, do your own difference test and see it for yourself. By the way, the tests above are on a very simple shot. A more complex shot and you throw away even more information!

Here's another article which briefs on the most popular lossless codecs: http://www.videopia.org/index.php/read/articles-mainmenu-229/576-lossless-codec-quick-survey.html. It doesn't mention UT, which is very fast. For archival purposes, you could also use MSU Lossless, which boasts an average compression ratio of 4:1. The drawback is that it is slow. So, next time you transcode to ProRes or Cineform, think again! One could say - "Oh, but in the final deliverable after all the compression you won't really see a difference". But why waste when you have an option? PC has a far broader range of codecs, of all kinds, and many of them are free.

As for Premiere Pro's native codec. Are you referring to the "Render Preview" option? Personally, I never use it. There's not much use when you have a real-time preview in the software! But in my trial, I noticed it is MPEG-2 PS. If you mean what is used internally, then it is native. There's no transcoding going on whatsoever for the precaching. Sometimes, I would want a HQ preview, a final draft of sorts, in which case I render out to x264VfW CRF 15 Ultrafast. It is a better option than DNxHD 36 and Cineform Low. (And presumably ProRes LT) If you choose "no codec", then it is Uncompressed, I think.

On older dual-core machines with 2GB RAM, a lossy intraframe codec might make sense. But on a modern machine, the lossless codecs are not a bottleneck.