Origo - Lemo Warning

[John DeBoer]

Curt and John,

Does VFS have product liability insurance? As you may be aware, you can not disclaim liability if substantial amount of users of your product had exactly the same damage due to reasonable and intended use of your product. It just doesn't float.

Just to be clear....I am only a happy client of Viewfactor, and am not involved any other way.

There is a simple solution: Check the cable.
As per Stuart:

If you are using an external 4-pin cable to trigger or to draw power via the Aux 12V port, you should verify that the barrel of the connector is not able to rotate 180 degrees. If it is capable of this fault, it will only take modest pressure to induce the rotation. Just slide the barrel back from the "latched" position and then gently try and rotate it. If it does rotate, and then clicks back into lock again, its a faulty cable.

It takes 10 seconds. If you can operate a camera, you can check the cable.

John DeBoer
Director of HD Sales
SIM VIDEO INTERNATIONAL

 

[Pawel Achtel]

It takes 10 seconds.

and, let's not forget, $800 :angry:

There seems to be some arguments both ways from Red and VFS. The problem is that, both seem to be pointing fingers at each other:

- Red claims the connectors cause the damage, which appears to be true.

- VFS claims that the the documentation says that the Aux port's outputs are overcurrent protected, which appears to be not true.

And the loser is....the customer. Not good.

I suggest that Red and VFS come together and devise a solution. If I can suggest one, here it is:

Red would drop the markups and labour costs on the repair. VFS would pay for the repair.

I personally find $800 hard to stomach considering both, the camera and the Origo were used as intended, no warning was given by either manufacturer and the commonality of the problem experienced. This is not a case of an "accident" or improper use. It looks like dozens and large percentage of experienced users were affected.

Over to Red and VFS. I hope to hear a positive and constructive way forward, guys.:beer:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I've been out of town with a busted laptop, so haven't been able to keep up with all this...

If I understand correctly, the fault is actually with the connectors supplied by LEMO, right? So if the same cable were supplied by anyone else, even RED, the same thing could happen.

Anyway, I'm back... I'll be inspecting my cables first thing in the morning.

 

[ericyoung]

...happy to sell mine to you for half price...

Hi Leo

If your Origo has been fine up to now, and it doesn't get hired out to hamfisted renters, then chances are it's fine, but I'll buy your Origo for half price if you're happy to accept PayPal! PM me and let me know how much for postage to London UK.

Thanks
Eric

 

[Jarred Land]

and, let's not forget, $800 :angry:

There seems to be some arguments both ways from Red and VFS. The problem is that, both seem to be pointing fingers at each other:

- Red claims the connectors cause the damage, which appears to be true.

this is just our analysis.. It is not our place to tell what is wrong with a 3rd party product.

- VFS claims that the the documentation says that the Aux port's outputs are overcurrent protected, which appears to be not true.

The AUX power pins are overcurrent protected. Thats not the problem. The Origo, via cable or other is shorting the Power pins to the Data pins which is the problem.. the data pins are not current protected as they arn't supposed to ever see power. They are protected by ESD shock, but not against continuos current. Its kinda like sticking your usb cable in a power socket. Not supposed to do it.

I personally find $800 hard to stomach considering both, the camera and the Origo were used as intended, no warning was given by either manufacturer and the commonality of the problem experienced. This is not a case of an "accident" and improper use. It looks like hundreds experienced users were affected.

uggh. We ( at RED ) jumped up and down, waved the RED flag, and screamed to Curt months ago that there was a serious issue and that many customers were affected. For whatever reason, those multiple warnings were met with denial and/or fell on deaf ears. And some how in the end, RED still gets blamed for the problem.

This is why I made this announcement. The Orgio, and its cables, are manufactured by Viewfactor, not by RED. Curt has made it clear that he is not responsible for damage if the Orgio hurts your RED, but I really hope people don't read that and then expect RED to pick up the bill.. because we can't, and we won't.

 

[Anders Holck]

0B does seem to be a little unstable generally.
On my Ultra 2 steadi an AC managed to push a 4 pin 0B lemo plug into a 3 pin socket. Blew my Bartech...what a day :-(

LEMO 0S.304 is a great connector...

The "Half moon" does the same trick as the 4 pin XLR. One way only....

 

[Mike Prevette]

It's a piss poor plug choice for something that could possibly be damaged by over voltage so easily. Anders is right, the OS.304, series is a much better choice.
I don't think taking your frustrations out on Curt is the right thing to do. Sure VF seems to be having some issues lately, but this really can't be blamed on him. This was a problem waiting to happen.
A solution would be to add some form of circuitry to the Origio that could detect a misplugged cable and disconnect.
I'm very happy with my Orgio, both my cables function as they should. Although I'm now going to add extra warnings to all my cables. Stuff like this makes me so very afraid of building AKS for my RED, It's just to fragile.


AND Yes Jim B. these are LEMO brand connectors.

 

[Brigham Edgar]

oh well, it's a hard one.

I don't think RED are responsible for the costs at all and should be thanked for making this aware to customers. Especially as VF obviously were not going to, and that's just piss poor quite frankly. Even if it is a plug issue it is their product and therefore their responsibility to at least make it known to customers...let alone the repair cost argument. The VERY least VF could have done is notify customers of a potential issue.

I have always been supportive of VF but this is a serious issue that VF have seemingly washed their hands of, not to mention a thousand delays etc with the FF. I am of now seriously considering bailing out of that and getting my $ back. I probably won't, but my confidence is seriously wavering in VF and i'm well...almost over it.:rofl:

 

[Pawel Achtel]

... but I really hope people don't read that and then expect RED to pick up the bill.. because we can't, and we won't.

Jarred,

Points taken. However, you will also agree that asking the Red user to fork $800 for what appears to be a dispute between two manufacturers is not the desired outcome.

I think we need some degree of cooperation rather than a heavy-handed approach. I am not trying to put a blame on Red or VFS, I am trying to find a better outcome.


I find it difficult to accept that the replacement board cost is anywhere near $800, so let me suggest another solution. And, I am happy to accept part of the bill.

1. The affected user pays $400 to Red for the repair
2. The affected user will receive a $150 credit from Red towards a purchase of any product over $1000 in value
3. The affected user will receive a $150 credit from VFS towards a purchase of any product over $1000 in value

Jarred, this does not say Red or VFS or the user are responsible, wrong or right. This is a solution to an unfortunate problem we have at hand where, in all likelyhood, all parties somewhat contributed to the damage.

I am sure everyone will agree that $800 charged to the user is heavy-handed and not fair outcome.

Over to you guys. Let's sort it out the best we can and post some funnies for a change.

Respect to all :beer:

 

[Jarred Land]

Jarred,

Points taken. However, you will also agree that asking the Red user to fork $800 for what appears to be a dispute between two manufacturers is not the desired outcome.

I think we need some degree of cooperation rather than a heavy-handed approach. I am not trying to put a blame on Red or VFS, I am trying to find a better outcome.


I find it difficult to accept that the replacement board cost is anywhere near $800, so let me suggest another solution. And, I am happy to accept part of the bill.

1. The affected user pays $400 to Red for the repair
2. The affected user will receive a $150 credit from Red towards a purchase of any product over $1000 in value
3. The affected user will receive a $150 credit from VFS towards a purchase of any product over $1000 in value

Jarred, this does not say Red or VFS or the user are responsible, wrong or right. This is a solution to an unfortunate problem we have at hand where, in all likelyhood, all parties somewhat contributed to the damage.

I am sure everyone will agree that $800 charged to the user is heavy-handed and not fair outcome.

Over to you guys. Let's sort it out the best we can and post some funnies for a change.

Respect to all :beer:

I understand your point Pawel.. if we created the problem I would agree with your suggestion.. but as RED , we probably wouldn't charge even anything if it was our doing.

$800 is the maximum bill if the damage is extreme.. it usually falls between $300 and $600. We don't gouge our customers. It takes alot of time to repair, and then we need to do an extensive system test and QA process after the fix is done to make sure nothing else was damaged.... Also, the board cost is high, remember even though we are making alot of power boards, they are incredible complex and we arn't making millions or even 100s of thousands of them like most electronics manufactures so our cost on them is high.. they are not $50 like some people think.

You must understand that we just cant subsidize repairs for damage 3rd party products create. Its not fair to us. We put ourselves in the customers shoes, and our margins we charge you for the camera do not incorporate these kind of deviance.. even with that said, if we are at fault, we repair for free... at our expense, you guys have seen this with compact flash modules, audio boards, etc.. because if we create the problem, we feel its not fair to put that onto the customer.

 

[Grady Wilson]

even with that said, if we are at fault, we repair for free... at our expense, you guys have seen this with compact flash modules, audio boards, etc.. because if we create the problem, we feel its not fair to put that onto the customer.

Jarred, you forgot to add the fact that most of us are getting the RED ONE on loan for FREE because of the upgrade program. RED IS SO UNFAIR!!! LOL. Anyone that expects RED to pay for this is bonkers. I do not care if it the cable, a button, or a little troll living inside the Origo causing the problem, IT IS Curt's problem. I am a little disappointed as well that he even in this thread tried to say that he had no knowledge of this issue.

I actually cancelled purchasing the Element Technica Mantis today because it uses the Origo. Obviously they knew about this problem as well and didn't decide to tell anyone.

 

[Rick Darge]

Hahaha, Grady, you crack me up. You canceled your Mantis because it uses Origo? Let me correct you. The Mantis has a metal housing for an Origo to be placed in. Element Technica and Viewfactor are two different companies that sometimes work together. Good luck shooting handheld..

 

[Grady Wilson]

My bad. I thought Element and VF merged as one company? They had the same booth at NAB and all the products were mixed together.

 

[Mike Prevette]

EDITED: Due to lack of point

 

[Peter Rollins]

My bad. I thought Element and VF merged as one company? They had the same booth at NAB and all the products were mixed together.

I was under this impression as well Grady, somebody told me they merged recently. Good news for Element if that is not really true as Element has always been a very Honest company.

 

[Joel Kaye]

The "Half moon" does the same trick as the 4 pin XLR. One way only....

EPIC and Scarlet should definitely use some kind of half moon plug.

 

[Matthew Verkler]

Hahaha, Grady, you crack me up. You canceled your Mantis because it uses Origo? Let me correct you. The Mantis has a metal housing for an Origo to be placed in. Element Technica and Viewfactor are two different companies that sometimes work together. Good luck shooting handheld..

And the Mantis just plain rocks. One of my guys shot three consecutive 12 hour days all on handheld with Red One and Mantis and survived quite well. I can't imagine going back to the dark ages of handheld Red One without Mantis.

For the record, I've used Origo since summer last year without issue. I will think twice about sending it out with rentals however. In any case I always make sure they have insurance which covers this kind of thing.

I like the idea of half-moon connectors - something for the future . . . . or perhaps protection on all the pins, not just half.

Matthew Verkler

 

[Steve Gal]

I would pay to have my camera sent in and have the connectors changed to a solid connector of choice. One that cannot be any other way than the right way no matter how hard you try. Would be nice to have a facility that can do the repair like Offhollywood would be NY or east coast drop off location, or if you could train qualified places to do the repair then you could have more drop off places. If we get everyone in on this and figure a low but fair charge for this, I think we could get rid of this thorn once and for all. Just an idea but if enough are up for it. Would cost alot less than an $ 800 repair bill.

 

[Jarred Land]

Steve.. thats actually not a bad idea... Would need to be an authorized RED repair center ( Lake Forest or UK ) or OffHollywood when they open up.. I don't see a downside to offering this service, ( unless you rent out your camera of course )

 

[Jarred Land]

Wtf?...

I think this thread just went to a whole different level.. I gotta connect with Curt and find out what is going on.

EDIT- Just talked to Curt... hes going to start fresh with a new post.. the way it should of been done in the beginning. Cleaning up the last part of this thread so he can explain about the "bad" non-lemo connectors that may have slipped through the cracks.