Origo - Lemo Warning

[Steve Gal]

I have been having this problem with the Lemo cables on my Bartech. i had to send my bartech for repair 5 times last year. Lemo should do something about this. Bad connector to use for power related products as well as the D-Tap. Never had this issue with the 4-Pin XLR.

 

[ericyoung]

Difficult design challenge - 4-pin XLR is solid but so much bigger than this Lemo. Any small multipin connector from any manufacture has similar potential problems. I like the multiple staggered keys of Hirose connectors, but they're not appropriate for every use.

The LCD/Viewfinder cables are even more tightly packed and necessarily have both power and signal wires.

 

[Lawrence Karman]

I can confirm this problem. I soldered up a 4 pin 0B Lemo to 4 pin XLR for 12 v output from the RED and discovered the pins to be 180 degrees off from the key when reassembled in the shell. Too much force when tightening the collet will cause this.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Difficult design challenge - 4-pin XLR is solid but so much bigger than this Lemo. Any small multipin connector from any manufacture has similar potential problems. I like the multiple staggered keys of Hirose connectors, but they're not appropriate for every use.

The LCD/Viewfinder cables are even more tightly packed and necessarily have both power and signal wires.

I have often wondered why RED went with LEMOs after having very good success with Hirose connectors on broadcast video cameras over the past 25 years. We made hundreds of cable extensions, viewfinder mods, lens cable extensions with outputs to pots, servo controllers, CCUs, etc.. Cables often got yanked pretty hard pulling in and out of underwater housings (both the standard cables and custom made ones) yet I don't ever remember this sort of thing happening to us or any customers.

Is this a cine vs. video thing where the cine world standardized on LEMOs?

 

[Joel Kaye]

Bad connector to use for power related products as well as the D-Tap. Never had this issue with the 4-Pin XLR.

Maybe it's not too late to fix this for EPIC.

So is this problem something that occurs when the cable is built or can a good cable be rotated into a bad cable by the user later?

 

[Jim Bartell]

I have been having this problem with the Lemo cables on my Bartech. i had to send my bartech for repair 5 times last year. Lemo should do something about this. Bad connector to use for power related products as well as the D-Tap. Never had this issue with the 4-Pin XLR.

The problem with Steve's Lemo was not due to the barrel reversal issue. It was due to a Lemo that was so worn that the locating tab was less than 1/2 normal size (and partially smashed) which enabled it to be plugged in upside down. Since the connector was replaced it has not come back. And at least one of the instances was due to the 2-pin power connector being jammed into the 3-pin "Data In" socket.

Having said that, it is relatively easy to reverse the outer barrel when tightening the collet by hand by applying too much force. That is why we assemble our connectors using wrenches to tighten the collet.

 

[Stuart English]

Lemo

Lemo

I have often wondered why RED went with LEMOs after having very good success with Hirose connectors on broadcast video cameras over the past 25 years. We made hundreds of cable extensions, viewfinder mods, lens cable extensions with outputs to pots, servo controllers, CCUs, etc. Cables often got yanked pretty hard pulling in and out of underwater housings (both the standard cables and custom made ones) yet I don't ever remember this sort of thing happening to us or any customers.

Is this a cine vs. video thing where the cine world standardized on LEMOs?

Lets all keep this in perspective...

We have identified an issue with some 3rd party cables made with 0B shell size LEMOs (presumably at some relatively low percentage, or we would have heard about this before)

Yes the cine world tends to use (european) LEMOs, just as the broadcast world tends to use (japanese) Hirose connectors. Obviously we'll consider this issue in the new camera design, but there is no reason to believe LEMO is less reliable than other connector types, they work perfectly well - including for delivery of power.

 

[Nick Gardner]

This is just my opinion but,

I think it is unfair to single out Viewfactor here. Red made the choice to use that connector. It's a fine connector, they are on lots of stuff. If the people using the equipment man handle the connectors to the point that they fail, that's operator error, and they should have to pay to get their stuff fixed.

Maybe an $800 repair bill will encourage them to be more careful next time.

Nick

 

[Jarred Land]

I have often wondered why RED went with LEMOs after having very good success with Hirose connectors on broadcast video cameras over the past 25 years. We made hundreds of cable extensions, viewfinder mods, lens cable extensions with outputs to pots, servo controllers, CCUs, etc.. Cables often got yanked pretty hard pulling in and out of underwater housings (both the standard cables and custom made ones) yet I don't ever remember this sort of thing happening to us or any customers.

Is this a cine vs. video thing where the cine world standardized on LEMOs?

we originally went with Hirose on various levels of our prototypes... and the fail rate was exceptionally high on the smaller connectors.

 

[Jarred Land]

This is just my opinion but,

I think it is unfair to single out Viewfactor here. Red made the choice to use that connector. It's a fine connector, they are on lots of stuff. If the people using the equipment man handle the connectors to the point that they fail, that's operator error, and they should have to pay to get their stuff fixed.

Maybe an $800 repair bill will encourage them to be more careful next time.

Nick

Im not singling out Viewfactor here... RED believes its a cable issue, we sent those findings to Curt because this has happened since he started shipping them, but we have had resistance to that theory from him so we cannot just say its for sure just a LEMO problem....

When we found out the Lemo problem, we posted it separately as it warranted a notice.

http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=402997&postcount=8


All we really know is cameras with Orgio on them are blowing ports on the RED camera from Shorting out the Data to the Power pins, which is why this warning is posted. We make it very clear that the power pins are protected, but the data pins are not. There is no protection circuit in the Orgio, so if something goes wrong cable or device that shorts the data to the power.. something is gonna break.

Take it how you want, and as I and Stuart keep saying, check ALL your cables to make sure they are in order. Thats a really good thing to do, even if this issue turns out to be something specifically to do with something else in the chain.

 

[A. Clint Litton]

I remember some of the LEMO aux power connectors on a Panaflex G2 had taken a different measure to ensure that everything was plugged in correctly...it had a semi-circle portion cut out inside the housings on both the camera and cable side of things, so there was only one way to correctly mate the cable with the plug on the camera. I think that was power-only, so less pins involved, but if it could work in this instance, maybe it's a feasible solution for the future...thoughts?

 

[A. Clint Litton]

Also, I second the request for some kind of quick and dirty tutorial video or diagram of how we should be checking the cables, as I'm not completely clear on how to ensure proper functionality on the connectors. Please excuse my ignorance...

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

Lets all keep this in perspective...

We have identified an issue with some 3rd party cables made with 0B shell size LEMOs (presumably at some relatively low percentage, or we would have heard about this before)

Yes the cine world tends to use (european) LEMOs, just as the broadcast world tends to use (japanese) Hirose connectors. Obviously we'll consider this issue in the new camera design, but there is no reason to believe LEMO is less reliable than other connector types, they work perfectly well - including for delivery of power.

Stuart,

I have sent you an email and a couple of PMs.. Have you gotten any of them?

Jay

 

[Adrian T.]

Thanks for the notification, Jarred!
And shame on Viewfactor for not alerting us! :cuss:

 

[CVB]

Also, I second the request for some kind of quick and dirty tutorial video or diagram of how we should be checking the cables, as I'm not completely clear on how to ensure proper functionality on the connectors. Please excuse my ignorance...

Here's a video showing the problem. http://viewfactor.net/downloads/bad_cable_connector.wmv

I used an Impero to simulate the red 4 pin connectors but its easy enough to see them on the camera, they are on the back and are labeled "AUX 12V". I had to sand down the pin on the connector to show you this demo, typically this problem happens very infrequently where the connectors can be plugged in the wrong way. To date we have only had 10 reports of "defective origos" directly to us, if we had seen 56 reports we would have been more than willing to alert our customers to this issue. On the 10 reports that we received I had the customers send us the units and cables - I was not able to verify that the cable or the origo were defective so there wasn't much I could do in terms of reporting a problem to the community. It is in reds opinion that this is the problem so we will support them and do what it takes to resolve any potential issues.

We have been checking for this issue on all shipping origos since Red alerted us to the problem. We are now modifying our documentation to alert the users that they should be careful when connecting to the Aux ports on the Red One and that the end user is ultimately responsible for lining up the two red dots and making sure the connector is plugged in correctly. Previous ops manuals were not 100% clear about the protections in place on the port so the new Red ops manual has clarified this issue - Red will not honor the warranty if damage is caused to the camera by inadvertently connecting pins 3 and 4. Pin 3 is apparently not over current protected like the power pins (1 and 2) are.

I have asked that Red provide us with a list of customers that experienced the power board problems so that we can contact them and verify if their cables have this issue. If any of you think that this issue applies to your cable then contact us at info@viewfactor.net and we will provide you with instructions to send the suspect cable in for us to inspect. If we find it to be incorrect we will be more than happy to replace it.

 

[Adrian T.]

Thanks for the clarification and the video, Curt!

 

[Steve Gal]

I remember some of the LEMO aux power connectors on a Panaflex G2 had taken a different measure to ensure that everything was plugged in correctly...it had a semi-circle portion cut out inside the housings on both the camera and cable side of things, so there was only one way to correctly mate the cable with the plug on the camera. I think that was power-only, so less pins involved, but if it could work in this instance, maybe it's a feasible solution for the future...thoughts?

I believe that if there would be a semi circle configuration on the pins instead, there can be no way to plug it in wrong no matter what. Having a keyway that wears down after normal use and can be forced in wrong in my opinion is not acceptable. A 3rd pin on the D-tap connector instead of just a D mold would prevent this as well. I was trying to state this on the 4-Pin XLR. The pins are in a semi circle configuration and cannot be reversed by simply plugging and unplugging. you have to understand that as a rental house, there is only so much we can do to prevent these problems. I see this problem happening not only with inexperienced AC's but with experienced AC's too. I always warn the customer before and even show them the potential problem and it still happens. It is very frustrating and it sort of gets blamed on the rental house. I am greatful for all of these beautiful products available on the market and they all work great but something should be done about a connector that gets used multiple times on a daily basis that can cause these problems. If this was a car company, there would definitely be a recall and car companies have alot more cars out there.

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

I think that all know why there's a red dot on all LEMO connectors! Right?

If one can't understand or he/she doesn't take care... it's natural selection!

Distraction happens but its a personal fault.

I remember some of the LEMO aux power connectors on a Panaflex G2 had taken a different measure to ensure that everything was plugged in correctly...it had a semi-circle portion cut out inside the housings on both the camera and cable side of things, so there was only one way to correctly mate the cable with the plug on the camera.

Hey that would be cool but two red dots are more than enough!

 

[Stuart English]

Keyways

Keyways

Having a keyway that wears down after normal use and can be forced in wrong in my opinion is not acceptable.

Well agreed it would be, but that is not the problem.....

 

[A. Clint Litton]

Hey that would be cool but two red dots are more than enough!

This should be enough, but sometimes people aren't in a position or environment to visually line up the two red dots (i.e. a dark set, rushed to change a configuration, understaffed and doing too much by oneself), and subsequently rely on turning the lemo until the key finds its guide. Sure, it would therefore be operator error, but designing and manufacturing a product to withstand this kind of abuse and uphold its operational integrity in less-than-ideal working situations should be strived for, whenever possible, IMHO. Definitely not trying to point a finger at Curt or Red or anyone else coming out with products for this camera, just hoping that people see this as an avoidable issue in the design of future products, rather than simply relying on the user to take extra special care, which we all know will not always be the case.

Cheers,
Clint