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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Origo - heres the deal...

I own three RED cameras, I prototype tested the Origo for VF, I've used the Origo extensively on my cameras for six months before they were released for purchase, and have used them almost daily ever since - with 21/2', 10', and 30' cables - all without so much as a hiccup from my REDs.

I like Curt, CVB, and their products. If individual cameras have had problems with Origo, it seems to me those are isolated incidents.

As for Curt, he is one of the most knowledgeable, hard working, nice guys you'd ever meet. There is no need for personal smears of Curt or CVB.
 
Pawel Achtel said:
Jarred,

Unfortunately the Origo problems burnt customers badly and Red has its own share of the blame.

1. I used Origo as a reasonable person would do
2. The camera was working fine
3. I sent the camera for audio upgrade on 17 April
4. On 4 May - nearly 3 weeks later (!) I was informed to pay $800
5. I paid $800 in a timely manner
6. Over a month since I sent the camera, I am still without the camera, without $800 and with Origo which will probably end up in the rubish bin

Jarred, if you are telling us that Red is not gauging the customers to rectify the problem that was caused due to misunderstanding between Red and VF, I think you better back it up.

If you are telling us that it was a MAJOR damage, and the camera is still working, you better come with better explanations because I am telling you that you are gauging money and you are unwilling to deal with the issues.

The manual says the pins are protected. The camera is under warranty. The manual does not warn about using the socket and a reasonable user would expect that, even if something went wrong, like reversed plug, it would be covered under warranty.

Mate, despite being supportive and having had good experience from Red service until now, reluctantly but firmly I am placing my complaint.

I hope it is resolved quickly. And, if you can't even repair the camera in a timely manner or at all, please return the repair money and send the camera back. It is costing me even more not having it here.

I have offered numerous solutions for us, Red and VF to come to the party and find a reasonable way of addressing this problem. Sadly, both VF and Red turned their backs on us, the customers. It doesn't go well in the community.

I hope VF and Red will reconsider.
Click to expand...


Dude,

I hear ya, and I know you are upset, but I am pretty sure airing a complaint like this publically is not a great idea. I think you would be better served dealing with RED Privately.

RED is known for giving special attention when needed, but they must do it quietly and on a case by case basis.. You make it much harder for them to take care of you when you put it in front of the world.

Jay
 
Dont worry about it Jay.. I wonder if we now know who the mysterious first poster was a few threads back :)

A cracked bell can never sound well.
 
Steve Gibby said:
I own three RED cameras, I prototype tested the Origo for VF, I've used the Origo extensively on my cameras for six months before they were released for purchase, and have used them almost daily ever since - with 21/2', 10', and 30' cables - all without so much as a hiccup from my REDs.
Click to expand...

Steve, How do you know you do not have aparently major damage? My camera was working with no aparent problems before I sent it for the upgrade.

Jay, I don't disagree. How do you know I haven't tried to resolve this with VF or Red directly?

I hope we can still do it and at the end of this thread I hope I can post how happy I am with the outcome. As I said earlier, until now I was extremely happy with Red service and there is still opportunity to remain so.

Also, please note that my complaint is not personal. Curt did email me and tried to contact me by phone in a professional manner. This is not the problem. The issue is that Red and VF are pointing fingers at each other with the customer being the victim. I don't want to find the "guilty" one. This is the sort of problem that took three parties to contribute to. I am just trying to find a reasonable solution and I am deeply frustrated at hitting brick walls :banghead:

Anyway, I am happy to take it off line. Jarred? Curt?
 
Pawel Achtel said:
Steve, How do you know you do not have aparently major damage? My camera was working with no aparent problems before I sent it for the upgrade.

Jay, I don't disagree. How do you know I haven't tried to resolve this with VF or Red directly?

I hope we can still do it and at the end of this thread I hope I can post how happy I am with the outcome. As I said earlier, until now I was extremely happy with Red service and there is still opportunity to remain so.

Also, please note that my complaint is not personal. Curt did email me and tried to contact me by phone in a professional manner. This is not the problem. The issue is that Red and VF are pointing fingers at each other with the customer being the victim. I don't want to find the "guilty" one. This is the sort of problem that took three parties to contribute to. I am just trying to find a reasonable solution and I am deeply frustrated at hitting brick walls :banghead:

Anyway, I am happy to take it off line. Jarred? Curt?
Click to expand...

Hi Pawel,

I'm under impression that the problem begin when red owner discovers his accesories blow. But it doesnt seem the case with you. Are you saying that you dont have any problem with your camera (even with the accessories port) until you sent your camera back to RED ?

If this is the case, how can a camera still behave properly and RED found that the port was actually burnt ? This is a little confusing...

Regards
 
Rivai said:
Hi Pawel,

I'm under impression that the problem begin when red owner discovers his accesories blow. But it doesnt seem the case with you. Are you saying that you dont have any problem with your camera (even with the accessories port) until you sent your camera back to RED ?

If this is the case, how can a camera still behave properly and RED found that the port was actually burnt ? This is a little confusing...

Regards
Click to expand...

Exactly. :angry:
 
Pawel Achtel said:
Jarred,

Unfortunately the Origo problems burnt customers badly and Red has its own share of the blame.

1. I used Origo as a reasonable person would do
2. The camera was working fine
3. I sent the camera for audio upgrade on 17 April
4. On 4 May - nearly 3 weeks later (!) I was informed to pay $800
5. I paid $800 in a timely manner
6. Over a month since I sent the camera, I am still without the camera, without $800 and with Origo which will probably end up in the rubish bin

Jarred, if you are telling us that Red is not gauging the customers to rectify the problem that was caused due to misunderstanding between Red and VF, I think you better back it up.

If you are telling us that it was a MAJOR damage, and the camera is still working, you better come with better explanations because I am telling you that you are gauging money and you are unwilling to deal with the issues.

The manual says the pins are protected. The camera is under warranty. The manual does not warn about using the socket and a reasonable user would expect that, even if something went wrong, like reversed plug, it would be covered under warranty.

Mate, despite being supportive and having had good experience from Red service until now, reluctantly but firmly I am placing my complaint.

I hope it is resolved quickly. And, if you can't even repair the camera in a timely manner or at all, please return the repair money and send the camera back. It is costing me even more not having it here.

I have offered numerous solutions for us, Red and VF to come to the party and find a reasonable way of addressing this problem. Sadly, both VF and Red turned their backs on us, the customers. It doesn't go well in the community.

I hope VF and Red will reconsider.
Click to expand...

Terrible experience you are having... my sympathies go out for you. Being charged $800 for a problem that "seemingly" Origo should be paying to fix is one thing... having the camera down for 2 months is a way bigger problem. As far as price gouging by Red I don't see how you come to that conclusion though. I think the slow service you mention on Red's part is terrible. Especially in our field where the camera is a necessity.

Thank you for at least making us aware of this issue. If I was Origo I would pay for your camera getting fixed just to shut you up. Because I sure as hell wouldn't buy/use their product now and many others are stating so too.
 
Brent@RED said:
Not Jarred or Curt, but you can work with me on this, Pawel. PM'ed you.

BC
Click to expand...

Greatly appreciated, Brent. I will respond to your PM very shortly.
 
Dude,

I hear ya, and I know you are upset, but I am pretty sure airing a complaint like this publically is not a great idea. I think you would be better served dealing with RED Privately.

RED is known for giving special attention when needed, but they must do it quietly and on a case by case basis.. You make it much harder for them to take care of you when you put it in front of the world.

Jay
Click to expand...

Thinking this way is the main reason why this problem affected more camera than necessary to stop the problem...

Now that the issue is known I'm sure all user are will deal with more attention with their cables.
 
Michele Gavazzeni said:
Thinking this way is the main reason why this problem affected more camera than necessary to stop the problem...

Now that the issue is known I'm sure all user are will deal with more attention with their cables.
Click to expand...

This is why i made the warning post in the first place as unsettling as it was to some people....

We have known about the problem for quite some time and I raised the Red flag for many months to Curt, but there did not seem to be any resolve so the warning finally needed to be done. I do apologize for this aspect of the puzzle, I probably should of made the warning public back in November when I alerted Curt to the high frequency of issues with the product, and then again in March. I guess I was hoping Curt would make the announcement but it was poor judgement for me to assume that that was their policy... I do believe he was working a hard has possible on a resolve, but there were some pieces of the puzzle RED knew nothing about that I wish we were made aware of, like the LEMO "compatible" cables that went out.

I promise in the future to put my hand up here in the future on any looming 3rd party issues, just like we do with our own. I am glad we all learned a lesson here.. and im very glad how Curt has handled the situation in the last week.
 
Thanks Jarred for your attention to this problem. Greatly appreciated.

I would also like to add:

1. The Lemo connector on my Origo appears to be genuine and does not seem to rotate or plug into the socket the wrong way around. Another Red user reported to me he had a power board failure and his LEMO connector also appears genuine and does not rotate. Are we sure that this is the cause of the failure?

2. The fact that the camera has been affected is not immediately obvious. It appears to function normally except the GPIO port may "play up". What worries me is that there may be another 4000 users affected and not even knowing they have a problem until they send the camera for a service.

Putting the two together, I would go even further than Jarred and say: do not use the Origo until we find out the full story.

Anyway, I am glad both Red and VF seem to be taking a more active approach now. And, as long as they do, all is good.
 
Pawel Achtel said:
Are we sure that this is the cause of the failure?.
Click to expand...

no, we are not sure... all RED knows is that a short has been introduced between the power and data pins on that port. If its not happening in the connector than it is happening somewhere inside the origo itself, not sure if that is a better or worse scenario.

We did our own tests and found some lemos could twist around causing the pins to cross and cause the problem.. some devices that pull power and use the data pins like the Birger mount have an internal protection circuit in case this happens, the Origo unfortunately does not as its just a simple switch. This means if there is a short of some sort.. its gonna just keep sending those volts to whatever it can until it eventually blows up.. or even worse does non-visible damage.

As the manual states, and as Stuart etc. have always stated, the Power pins are protected by shorts. The Data pins are not protected against constant voltage as the data pins are not supposed to be feeling constant power :)

Its important to note though that even though we have seen dozens of cameras come into RED with damage pointing to the Origo, I believe Curt has sold hundreds and hundreds of them so the actual percentage ratio of cameras with Origos that have at least reported problems is likely well below 10%..
 
Pawel Achtel said:
Steve, How do you know you do not have aparently major damage? My camera was working with no aparent problems before I sent it for the upgrade.
Click to expand...

The simple answer to that question is that I was beta testing and heavily using my Origo units and cables for months before my cameras were sent in to RED for the audio and CF module upgrades. To my knowledge, on REDs inspection of my cameras there was no damage to them from the previous months of use of the Origo units with them.

As I see Jarred has mentioned, some cameras had problems from the Origo units, but most didn't. Mine didn't...
 
This is an interesting dilemma. I have an Origo that was sent to me by VF as I needed it for a handheld job I was shooting. Turned out the shoot ended up being on sticks and I didn't use it. But the VF guys came through and got it to me on short notice. So, I don't question them as a company. I think they are trying to get a lot accomplished with limited resources but their dedication seems to be there.

Now, I have to admit I have been nervous about plugging in the Origo until the problems have been clearly identified, confirmed, and resolved with absolute certainty. That's not to say that mine won't work just fine, but I think I would rather let this play out and get a green light on whether they are okay. If it's something like if you plug in the Origo and your camera blows up, that's one thing. If it's a problem that can be somewhat invisible, that's worrisome.

I'm hoping everyone works together and gets this thing figured out. It's an essential device, and if there are many of them working just fine without issue, it would be a shame to see VF lose sales or have their reputation tarnished over it. But I can understand Red's position on this too. If they believe the cables are responsible for damaging the cameras, they have to speak up about it. As customers, I think the most we can ask for is a uniform diagnosis of the problem, followed by a solution to deal with the problem. If it turns out there was a bad batch of Origos, better to get that accounted for and let everyone that wasn't affected move on and use theirs with confidence.

I have full confidence that Jarred and Curt will work through this and provide us with answers. Just need to give them some time to figure it out.
 
stevesherrick said:
I'm hoping everyone works together and gets this thing figured out. It's an essential device, and if there are many of them working just fine without issue, it would be a shame to see VF lose sales or have their reputation tarnished over it. But I can understand Red's position on this too. If they believe the cables are responsible for damaging the cameras, they have to speak up about it. As customers, I think the most we can ask for is a uniform diagnosis of the problem, followed by a solution to deal with the problem. If it turns out there was a bad batch of Origos, better to get that accounted for and let everyone that wasn't affected move on and use theirs with confidence.

I have full confidence that Jarred and Curt will work through this and provide us with answers. Just need to give them some time to figure it out.
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree with you, Steve.

I am happy to send my Origo for evaluation, if required.
 
Don't know if this applies to the Origos as don't have one yet but, on the same Lemos that are used for radio talkback units at my work, if there's too much solder used or it's a bit blobby, then twisting the cable potentially rotates the pins just enough that the blobby solder on one pin may contact another pin inside the barrel, unless all or alternate pins are individually sleeved.

Inspecting my Birger cable, solder joints are fine, but the pins aren't sleeved. Am going to put some thin individual sleeving round each pin to avoid power-to-data pin and power-to-shell shorts if the cable were yanked or twisted hard by accident.
 
Red has been extremely cautious on how to treat their clients. They have been also very generous on our demands as clients and no other company can compare their customer care dept. I am confident (hopefully) that once the problem is nailed down some one will take action and repair the done damage. I dont know if my issue with the camera is Origo related, but I trust RED will know. Its certainly not as all the problems mentioned in other threads, but as this is a work in progress problem I though I might add something to help nail the problem if its origo related, if not, dont pay attention.
I too want to read the end of this thread with congrats and hugs. I know thats how its gonna be :)
 
I made a few hundred Lemo cables for my former company, Media Logic. These were for the three decimal place speed controls for Arri, Aaton, and Panavision - sold a bunch in the 90's. Lemo on one end, Fischer or Lemo on the other end. We did send a few dozen out without putting heat shrink sleeves on each connection, but found out that it was much safer to do that on every one. Boy you better have a solid Zen state going before you make up a dozen of these, for sure . . .
 
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