Open question to BM: How would you feel if you just bought Resolve?

[Hans von Sonntag]

Unless, of course, Adobe does something stupid (like Apple) and roll the technology into Premiere as a plug-in. Or implements it in AE like Color Finesse.

I'm a long time SpeedGrade user. And I can tell you the best thing for the user would be to implement Iridas' superior technology in an NLE, in a Adobe's case Premier Pro. Roundtripping, conforming, re-conforming is not fun. The longer, the complexer the project, the more demanding the client, or yourself, the more tedious and creativity hindering is a stand-alone CC application. IMHO, the times of grading software are over. IMHO, BM is late at the party.

Hans

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

I'm hoping that since the product is free a lot of those crappy HDSLR movies that go without any attention to color will now get some.

Only a few FCP users ever bothered to open the free-of-charge Color once, let alone to use it for a project. Most people/clients don't care really. Is great if it looks okay. Any NLE is able to make a video look okay. For a more fancy look a a plugin with a template will do it just fine. The fact that Resolve is now for free won't change anything to the better in this regard.


Hans

 

[Mark Wilkinson]

Ok, fair enough. But the implementation needs to be very robust. Not just a 3 wheel plug-in.

But what about memorized grades? What about stills libraries and all the other time-saving and workflow issues that grading apps are good at? If all that is in Premiere, then fine.

If the roundtrip felt more like a different interface layout in Premiere - that would be great. Who cares if it is called a different app or not. If it works, it works.

My issue is professional workflow tools in a color corrector - not just the color correcting.

 

[Shane Betts]

It's a joke, right?

It's a joke, right?

I had to deal with this kind of nonsense when I worked at BM 8 years back. There are some very simple principles here.

First, is the licence you bought still worth the money you paid for it? Pretty hard to argue that one. A year before you paid out your precious $1,000 it was selling for $850,000. You poor dear, you've been ripped off. Horrible, mean old BMD. :crying:

Second principle. Just because the producer's daughter gets the free licence doesn't mean she has any idea or talent for the job at hand. It's the oldest, tiredest old industry whinge that "soon anyone will have the gear I have and I'll never get a job". True - if you're a no talent, unprofessional bum - but if you are actually a talented, professional operator, charge for you and you'll get work. (not suggesting you are a no talent unprofessional bum ,merely saying relax, you'll still get work). The same old cry of the sky is falling went up when Final Cut Pro was released, when Mini DV came out, when Red entered the market. The only people to suffer are those who hide behind their lack of something real to offer by having the most gear. Flawed, elitist business model and glad to see the back of it.

Three, how can you complain that BM's decisions have destroyed the industry and will put people out of work when, as has been pointed out, hacked and pirated software costs nothing either. Most producers I know have Macs and PCs full of hacked and pirated software. Whilst they lack the will to spend money on software and gear, they also lack the will to learn how to use it or the time to actually complete the job. Sure, there are those that will elect to become one man bands and do it all themselves. This forum is full of such types (of which I am one) but most of us actually have a background as DP's or editors etc.

Don't trade on the gear you own or what you paid for it. Trade on your talent, professionalism and experience. The moment you start putting the price you paid for your gear on your rate card you open yourself up to getting slammed by the big post houses, who will always have more than you.

And, lets' do the math here. One percent of purchase price per day. So you paid $1,000 for a Resolve license. That's worth, let me see - $10 a day in rental. Over a 10 hour day thats... My hourly rate is $70. If I offer Resolve Lite I can only charge $69? Come on. Gimme a break.

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Ok, fair enough. But the implementation needs to be very robust. Not just a 3 wheel plug-in.

But what about memorized grades? What about stills libraries and all the other time-saving and workflow issues that grading apps are good at? If all that is in Premiere, then fine.

If the roundtrip felt more like a different interface layout in Premiere - that would be great. Who cares if it is called a different app or not. If it works, it works.

My issue is professional workflow tools in a color corrector - not just the color correcting.

Fully agreed!

Hans

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

People that work in color correction are artists. Their job is hard, the nessesary skill set it massive. Not only is it about talent, it's about speed. A good colorist demands a LOT of money per hour, but they still have to deliver VALUE for that time, so they need to be quick. There is a reason the work surface for these programs costs so much.

I do not believe for one second that lowering the cost of the software will hurt the industry. Sure more idiots will come in to try it out, but that has always been the case. The cream rises to the top.

Jay

 

[Rob Ruffo]

The possibility of this producing more talented colorists is a good thing, I think. The technology we work with are changing rapidly. Switching from one editing system to another, and now coloring tools. Frustrating? Maybe. I think roll with the punches is a more creative approach.

But a business having descended into super-low wages will not produce more colorists. It will, in the end, produce none.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I had to deal with this kind of nonsense when I worked at BM 8 years back. There are some very simple principles here.

First, is the licence you bought still worth the money you paid for it? Pretty hard to argue that one. A year before you paid out your precious $1,000 it was selling for $850,000. You poor dear, you've been ripped off. Horrible, mean old BMD. :crying:

Second principle. Just because the producer's daughter gets the free licence doesn't mean she has any idea or talent for the job at hand. It's the oldest, tiredest old industry whinge that "soon anyone will have the gear I have and I'll never get a job". True - if you're a no talent, unprofessional bum - but if you are actually a talented, professional operator, charge for you and you'll get work. (not suggesting you are a no talent unprofessional bum ,merely saying relax, you'll still get work). The same old cry of the sky is falling went up when Final Cut Pro was released, when Mini DV came out, when Red entered the market. The only people to suffer are those who hide behind their lack of something real to offer by having the most gear. Flawed, elitist business model and glad to see the back of it.

Three, how can you complain that BM's decisions have destroyed the industry and will put people out of work when, as has been pointed out, hacked and pirated software costs nothing either. Most producers I know have Macs and PCs full of hacked and pirated software. Whilst they lack the will to spend money on software and gear, they also lack the will to learn how to use it or the time to actually complete the job. Sure, there are those that will elect to become one man bands and do it all themselves. This forum is full of such types (of which I am one) but most of us actually have a background as DP's or editors etc.

Don't trade on the gear you own or what you paid for it. Trade on your talent, professionalism and experience. The moment you start putting the price you paid for your gear on your rate card you open yourself up to getting slammed by the big post houses, who will always have more than you.

And, lets' do the math here. One percent of purchase price per day. So you paid $1,000 for a Resolve license. That's worth, let me see - $10 a day in rental. Over a 10 hour day thats... My hourly rate is $70. If I offer Resolve Lite I can only charge $69? Come on. Gimme a break.

That's a good post. However, I don't hide behind my gear with clients - I don't even mention it, except, again, to my accountant. Gear should be an investment in your bottom line, so that you rent less, rent to others, and come out further ahead at the end of the year, not a sales tactic for when you offer yourself as a creative professional. But that said, I think I, and even more so (850 times more) the 850K buyers from 2 years ago have a right to our low opinion of BM. 1000 is not a lot to me, but it is a lot to a percentage of those who bought it., especially those who bought it very recently. They screwed us, as we did not buy the set of differences from what anyone could get for free that we thought we were buying, and I would not have paid $1000 for two weeks of access, as I purchased two weeks ago. We will no longer be able to buy gear if depreciation is sometimes 100% in two weeks. Gear is supposed to be a resellable asset with a somewhat predictable depreciation, at least within reason, and software is a form of gear. If we can no longer buy software, and no one can, then I don't see how new tools will be developed.Luckily, most companies have less complete, callous disregard for their paying clientele than BM. The 850K guys have even more of a right to be pissed, for sure - all in all you can see how BM is not making any friends among anyone with any money in the color business.

You all scream elitist and so on, but really if there are no more affluent people in the business, there is no more business.

 

[Ramesh Jai]

If your livelihood depends solely on the tools you have and not on your talent then you are in the rental business. And even that needs talent. There's a point in there somewhere for Mr. Ruffo.

 

[jake blackstone]

We're all in the rental business. We rent out our talent and time in exchange for a payday. Not that much different, than renting out shoes in a bowling alley

 

[Ramesh Jai]

We're all in the rental business. We rent out our talent and time in exchange for a payday. Not that much different, than renting out shoes in a bowling alley

Agreed. If your client comes to you only for your equipment then he can go anywhere else offering a lower rate for the same equipment. I really don't know why this thread has dragged on so long. It's like a telenovela with repeated pans and zooms.

 

[Dave Blackham]

We will buy another licence but not just yet. I do think BM should have handled this a little more sensitivly though. I remember one camera manafacturer who made a disk cache unit that they sold for about £20,000 UKP then subsiquent to a few local sales included it in part of the camera package effectivly Free, so I think its is regretably just part of the modern world. I still think the price point of the full package is good the the software does result in images that can be outstanding, Davinci its also a well proven CC.

 

[Shane Betts]

That's a good post. However, I don't hide behind my gear with clients - I don't even mention it, except, again, to my accountant. Gear should be an investment in your bottom line, so that you rent less, rent to others, and come out further ahead at the end of the year, not a sales tactic for when you offer yourself as a creative professional. But that said, I think I, and even more so (850 times more) the 850K buyers from 2 years ago have a right to our low opinion of BM. 1000 is not a lot to me, but it is a lot to a percentage of those who bought it., especially those who bought it very recently. They screwed us, as we did not buy the set of differences from what anyone could get for free that we thought we were buying, and I would not have paid $1000 for two weeks of access, as I purchased two weeks ago. We will no longer be able to buy gear if depreciation is sometimes 100% in two weeks. Gear is supposed to be a resellable asset with a somewhat predictable depreciation, at least within reason, and software is a form of gear. If we can no longer buy software, and no one can, then I don't see how new tools will be developed.Luckily, most companies have less complete, callous disregard for their paying clientele than BM. The 850K guys have even more of a right to be pissed, for sure - all in all you can see how BM is not making any friends among anyone with any money in the color business.

You all scream elitist and so on, but really if there are no more affluent people in the business, there is no more business.

And if those affluent people happen to be producers who are so keen to hang on to their money they employ their kids to take the work of professionals?

Whilst BMD are guilty of making things as cheap as they can, sometimes at the risk of causing this kind of offence, they certainly didn't invent it. It's called the computer industry. Grant's focus has always been to put tools, previously out of the reach of all but the large post houses, into the hands of freelancers - the very freelancers who actually make the rental businesses look good with their talent and effort. Steve Jobs coined the phrase "the democratising of the film industry" and, if the prices charged (or not charged as the case may be) by the BMD's of this world allow a teenager to learn on a high-end grading app, even if that teenager has a producer for a parent, then democratising is exactly what is happening. If that teenager turns out to be a talent then the industry must benefit - no matter who their dad is. If that teenager turns out to be a no-talent schmuck, then at least they won't be able to cling onto their job based purely on owning some bit of kit others can't afford.

I understand you feel the software you bought isn't worth what you paid for it two weeks ago but the number of offers you've had from people willing to buy it from you would seem to indicate you're mistaken. Particularly when the nearest alternative is fifty times the price. Bottom line is what you paid $1,000 for is still worth $1,000 and still does everything it it did when you thought it was a bargain a fortnight ago. It's not like they decided to give away exactly the same thing as you paid a grand for. The Lite version has less features. It's not really BMD's fault, nor could they ever predict, that the things they've stripped out aren't things that you, yourself, don't find useful.

 

[Danai Chutinaton]

I had to deal with this kind of nonsense when I worked at BM 8 years back. There are some very simple principles here.

First, is the licence you bought still worth the money you paid for it? Pretty hard to argue that one. A year before you paid out your precious $1,000 it was selling for $850,000. You poor dear, you've been ripped off. Horrible, mean old BMD. :crying:

Second principle. Just because the producer's daughter gets the free licence doesn't mean she has any idea or talent for the job at hand. It's the oldest, tiredest old industry whinge that "soon anyone will have the gear I have and I'll never get a job". True - if you're a no talent, unprofessional bum - but if you are actually a talented, professional operator, charge for you and you'll get work. (not suggesting you are a no talent unprofessional bum ,merely saying relax, you'll still get work). The same old cry of the sky is falling went up when Final Cut Pro was released, when Mini DV came out, when Red entered the market. The only people to suffer are those who hide behind their lack of something real to offer by having the most gear. Flawed, elitist business model and glad to see the back of it.

Three, how can you complain that BM's decisions have destroyed the industry and will put people out of work when, as has been pointed out, hacked and pirated software costs nothing either. Most producers I know have Macs and PCs full of hacked and pirated software. Whilst they lack the will to spend money on software and gear, they also lack the will to learn how to use it or the time to actually complete the job. Sure, there are those that will elect to become one man bands and do it all themselves. This forum is full of such types (of which I am one) but most of us actually have a background as DP's or editors etc.

Don't trade on the gear you own or what you paid for it. Trade on your talent, professionalism and experience. The moment you start putting the price you paid for your gear on your rate card you open yourself up to getting slammed by the big post houses, who will always have more than you.

And, lets' do the math here. One percent of purchase price per day. So you paid $1,000 for a Resolve license. That's worth, let me see - $10 a day in rental. Over a 10 hour day thats... My hourly rate is $70. If I offer Resolve Lite I can only charge $69? Come on. Gimme a break.

Well said.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

What an odd thread!

Customers demanding a company should KEEP ITS PRICES UP because what their Producers want is HIGH COST EQUIPMENT!

And so ironic that its happening in the RED Forums, a company that came in with technology that undercut everyone else on price and overwhelmed them on feature set. I mean, REDCINE X is FREE! Does that make it bad? Do I really want to work with a producer who says - don't use REDCINE X, use FLAME or else...

 

[Tim Sutherland]

I bought a resolve license just after 8.0 came out. I haven't done much to make money with resolve since then since I've been on a long term job. But I'm not upset at all by the new lite version, ill add that to my laptop to do quick dslr fixes with. And since I invested in an expansion box, ill probably add another GTX 480 before too long. And when the windows version arrives, ill make a windows box with 3 480s and no rocket, which will still work very well with epic footage.

No complaints from me, but it would be nice if the full version would operate without the dongle restricted to the lite features, which would help when switching between workstations wit one license at a time.

Tim

 

[Neil W. Smith]

Moore's Law and survival of the fittest ...

Moore's Law and survival of the fittest ...

Whilst BMD are guilty of making things as cheap as they can, sometimes at the risk of causing this kind of offence, they certainly didn't invent it. It's called the computer industry. Grant's focus has always been to put tools, previously out of the reach of all but the large post houses, into the hands of freelancers - the very freelancers who actually make the rental businesses look good with their talent and effort. Steve Jobs coined the phrase "the democratising of the film industry" and, if the prices charged (or not charged as the case may be) by the BMD's of this world allow a teenager to learn on a high-end grading app, even if that teenager has a producer for a parent, then democratising is exactly what is happening. If that teenager turns out to be a talent then the industry must benefit - no matter who their dad is. If that teenager turns out to be a no-talent schmuck, then at least they won't be able to cling onto their job based purely on owning some bit of kit others can't afford..

Great post, Bettsy .... glad to see that someone here has a grain of common sense between their ears!

We have three fully paid up DaVinci Resolve Systems ... all with the DNxHD plug-in and multiple nVidia GPUs .... have no regrets at all for paying what I did for those systems ... one of the best investments I ever made ... along with a $100,000 DLP projector and a $130,000 tape deck and three talented colorists who know how to squeeze every ounce of goodness out of Resolve.

I had the pleasure of spending some time with Grant Petty (CEO of BMD) at NAB a few years ago when Blackmagic first acquired DaVinci .... we were discussing the pricing strategy of Resolve ... I was complaining then about the low cost of Resolve and how it would turn the color correction business on its head ... blah, blah blah ... I asked him straight up if it was a move to take out the competition? .... he looked at me fair in the eye and said something along the lines of ... "Neil, I never look at what the competition is doing .... I look at what our customers need and give it to them at the best price possible ... I want everyone to have the best tools possible to get the job done ... always." He said it very matter of factly and calmly ... on the plane back to LA I mulled it over ... first time I'd ever heard a CEO say that he didn't focus on what the competition was doing but only on the value he could deliver to his customers.

That encounter on the crowded and bustling floor of NAB changed my attitude and our business model ... Moore's Law is like 'drinking from a fire hose' ... it sweeps aside everything in its digital path ... you either ride the wave or get pushed under ... each year gets tougher, faster, leaner and meaner ... but you can't be like King Canute and hope to keep the waves off the beach.

We were lucky enough to be able to demo Resolve 8.1 and Media Composer 6 at the SMPTE Conference last month running footage shot on an 8k camera .... the SMPTE engineers and Studio people who came to our booth were amazed at the price/performance of what we were showing on a standard MacPro with a PCIe Expansion box ... the Windows version of Resolve 8.2 will soon be here with even better price/performance ... MC6 and DV R8.2 running on Windows box will drive the price/performance curve up another notch ... Resolve Lite 8.2 on a Wintel machine will be hard to beat in terms of value ... better get used to it.


Adapt ... survive ... thrive ... it's the only way in our Moore's Law driven industry.

Neil

 

[Rob Ruffo]

What an odd thread!

Customers demanding a company should KEEP ITS PRICES UP because what their Producers want is HIGH COST EQUIPMENT!

And so ironic that its happening in the RED Forums, a company that came in with technology that undercut everyone else on price and overwhelmed them on feature set. I mean, REDCINE X is FREE! Does that make it bad? Do I really want to work with a producer who says - don't use REDCINE X, use FLAME or else...

There is a business point here that some of you do not get - but Jake does. In fact, yes, producers want high cost equipment - in my field, soon, I will not be able to sell doing jobs on DaVinci - because soon it will be the "free low-budget 7D skateboard video software". This makes me mad, most of all, about the time I spent learning it.

That's how the advertising field sometimes works, and fashion is even worse. If all producers and agency creatives make reasoned decisions at artistic and technical levels, then why would there have been a market for PL mount adapters for DSLRs? Because the "5D look" was in for a few months back there, and the only way to shoot that "in" look, for some of them, was the expensive way. There are many exceptions - the people who rep me really know their stuff - and I've met brilliant agency creatives who could run circles around many experienced DPs, but these are exceptions. Most fields in production are not indy films where you see at distributor when you're done, and until then it's whatever works. In many fields of production, perception is unfortunately sometimes the only reality, and if you want to pay the rent, the fact that they "should" only care about talent doesn't matter.

This is not a thread about "they only come to us for our equipment" - for many years I made a great living as a DP/director and owned $0 equipment other than my light meter and a stills cam for location scouts. This is about the people who make gear (hardware or software) showing a modicum of respect for those who hand them over their money in the context of a BUSINESS investment. Buying gear is the business side of things, and making that investment has nothing whatsoever to do with how highly valued true art is or should be.

I find when you mention the fact that others, like BM, have been irresponsible in the same way, you are just looking for excuses for their bad behavior, and the fact that others behave badly makes the whole lot guilty, it doesn't excuse any of them.

The software industry does, not, on the whole, depreciate it's value (normally) the way the computer hardware industry does. Software normally goes down in small steps, or not at all. This is the first time I've seen a pro tool go from $250 000 to FREE in less than two years.

I don't expect everyone to be as stellar as Red - they seem to see their buyers a investors and partners in their company. I do expect reasonable behavior.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

...MC6 and DV R8.2 running on Windows box will drive the price/performance curve up another notch ... Resolve Lite 8.2 on a Wintel machine will be hard to beat in terms of value ...
Neil

Can't wait!

@Rob - I guess all I'm trying to figure out is if there's a solution you or anyone else here can propose that doesn't include asking a manufacturer to NOT drop prices, and infact, RAISE THEM to maintain an aura of mystique (Tiffany's model perhaps?). If that's the only solution to the issue at hand (and I agree there's an issue at hand), then its a pretty odd solution to even consider, let alone pursue. I mean, a class action lawsuit against a manufacturer for DROPPING prices...? How does that even get argued in court?

I guess I just don't get the solution that seems to have been floated here (if I'm understanding the thread correctly). I get that there's a problem (perception, downward pressure on pricing, disappearing business models, image-driven and/or if-its-expensive-no-one-can-fire-us-for-choosing-it CYA producers etc). But the (seemingly) proposed solution baffles me.

EDIT: you have to understand my perspective is that of someone who saw the Hollywood Studios go from using expensive SGI boxes to clusters of inexpensive Windows NT workstations without batting an eyelid and delivered more and more stunning VFX work. No one ever mentioned wanting to pay SGI prices for the Win NT boxes.

 

[Doug Beatty]

There is a business point here that some of you do not get - but Jake does. In fact, yes, producers want high cost equipment - in my field, soon, I will not be able to sell doing jobs on DaVinci - because soon it will be the "free low-budget 7D skateboard video software". This makes me mad, most of all, about the time I spent learning it.

Maybe you could teach me? I am new to Resolve and would pay for tutoring sessions. Or better yet, maybe one of your friends that is being hurt the most by BMs decision could do it?