One fear...

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I don't understand why this is a fear. I mean yes there will be a glut of people owning Scarlets and jocking for a piece of Red pie, but the professionals and good shooters will stand out among the amateurs. We've seen it with the recent advances in DV/HDV/P2. I think the only time it will bite you in the ass is if a company is looking at two people for a job, one with an Red/Epic package and the other with a Scarlet. And if both people have really good work it will probably come down to cost.

I think one of the fears could lie in the fact that a year from now most of the stuff you can do with a R1 you could be able to do with a Scarlet. Because of the specs showed earlier, you can certainly think the Scarlet is an improved R1 with limited extra options like ramping or red code codec quality (I dont know if still RC100 would be much better than RC36 I guess it will in deed) but on the other hand with an equally comparable sensor or an even better one for half the price of the original "brain" investment. Regarding the advances in DV that large companies have made I suppose that the Redcode 100 will be better than the RC28 or 36 that we are used to be working with, but the Epic's RC225 could relate to what the advances and limitations of the previous ones could limit. In other words, we could also interpret that the scarlet's limitation that Jim has tried to point out relies in the codec's ability to compress the images that the processor or brain can handle, giving us better images on the R1 and the Epics than in the scarlets. I mean, there must be a difference in image quality between a 7K$, a 17K$ and a 28K equipment! Just a thought..

 

[dino g]

what about the computer(s) you need to buy to be efficient on set...

decent mac pro x 2 - 20k
mac book pro or imac - 4k
drives - 4k (to start, more as time goes on)
monitors - cinema displays - 6 x 1000 = 6k
cases for the above - 3k
battery backup x 3 - 1k
preston cables - 3k (2 x mdr1, mdr2, mdr3), 4 x power to anton, microforce)


that is another 40K+, plus the stuff i am leaving out (too late)...

dino

 

[Häakon]

You need two mac pros, a mac book, $4,000 worth of drives, and six cinema displays to be "efficient on set?"

Haha... man, you must have demanding clients...

 

[Tom Lowe]

I don't understand why this is a fear. I mean yes there will be a glut of people owning Scarlets and jocking for a piece of Red pie, but the professionals and good shooters will stand out among the amateurs. We've seen it with the recent advances in DV/HDV/P2. I think the only time it will bite you in the ass is if a company is looking at two people for a job, one with an Red/Epic package and the other with a Scarlet. And if both people have really good work it will probably come down to cost.

Good point. People who are worried that some punk down the street with a Scarlet is going to steal their business away should concentrate on becoming better DPs and forging relationships with industry people, instead of thinking they need to rely on some slim and always fleeting technical edge to keep them in business.

 

[Brook Willard]

what about the computer(s) you need to buy to be efficient on set...

decent mac pro x 2 - 20k
mac book pro or imac - 4k
drives - 4k (to start, more as time goes on)
monitors - cinema displays - 6 x 1000 = 6k
cases for the above - 3k
battery backup x 3 - 1k
preston cables - 3k (2 x mdr1, mdr2, mdr3), 4 x power to anton, microforce)


that is another 40K+, plus the stuff i am leaving out (too late)...

dino

Dino's right. Hell, my DIT cart alone would have a $40,000 replacement cost if it went away tomorrow. He and I are probably the guys who deal with some of the largest clients in LA... fast shoots need instant turnaround and big clients like big toys.

 

[dino g]

we create half high pro res files on set plus provide an environment for the DP to color grade in redcine and scratch as we shoot, plus we build the final cut timeline and actual cut spots in some situations, with a 3 or 4 camera shoot you need that kind of horse power to deliver 1 tb x 4 at the end of the day...500 gigs of camera data and 500 gigs of down converts. we require the prod company to bring two gtech graid2's 1tb to set and we also bring two. (with multi-camera shoots maybe more) we have a copy of everyshot that our camera has ever shot in 15 months...that is several hundred TB...if you are not doing this, then you are not getting or servicing the kind of clients, (academy award winning people) as brook says, as we are, but you may have to in the future as this is what more and more production companies come to expect from the DIT/TECH/Owner Op.

to clarify, when i say efficient, i men you have the horse power to do all of these things and not be left at set 5 hours after wrap. i do not be efficient in getting to set and setting up.

we always have to remember that our job is to make everyone on set not know that there is a difference between using a RED versus any other format. virtually everyone else on set does their job exactly the same at the same pace, except (in the case of film) there is no loader, no developing, no prep for telecine, no telecine, no tapes...you know the drill by now, but on set, seemless, humble, one step ahead to be on time.

 

[Häakon]

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I just don't like the pervasive message that some people continue to send that you "need" $60,000 for a RED package and $40,000 for a computer package to use a RED system effectively. Plenty of users are out shooting fully legit features with a Mac Book Pro and a card reader and are turning around files just fine. You still get as much redundant backup as your heart desires. I also think that some people's approach to the post pipeline is still quite wacky, but that's a topic for an entirely different conversation...

Anyway, I think one of the largest appeals of the RED approach is that it isn't film and it isn't like any other high end video camera on the market. You DON'T need all of that extra stuff to do your job well... there's no refrigerator thethering or changing tents or ridiculous amounts of data to shuffle around. One can always make the job harder than it needs to be, but I think there are enough people who get that already or you wouldn't see the kind of varied crowd here that we do. That democratization is what makes RED beautiful.

 

[Rick Darge]

Amen Häakon

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I just don't like the pervasive message that some people continue to send that you "need" $60,000 for a RED package and $40,000 for a computer package to use a RED system effectively. Plenty of users are out shooting fully legit features with a Mac Book Pro and a card reader and are turning around files just fine. You still get as much redundant backup as your heart desires. I also think that some people's approach to the post pipeline is still quite wacky, but that's a topic for an entirely different conversation...

Anyway, I think one of the largest appeals of the RED approach is that it isn't film and it isn't like any other high end video camera on the market. You DON'T need all of that extra stuff to do your job well... there's no refrigerator thethering or changing tents or ridiculous amounts of data to shuffle around. One can always make the job harder than it needs to be, but I think there are enough people who get that already or you wouldn't see the kind of varied crowd here that we do. That democratization is what makes RED beautiful.

 

[Evin Grant]

There are two different approaches here, both are legit. Brook's and Dino's is a specific need, I get by fine with a Macbook Pro and a UPS on a $200 rock-n-roller cart.
That doesn't mean I don't have the Mac Daddy 8 core/30" cinema/Reference grade system at home for finishing and transcoding though.

 

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

I too had to switch between the good old G5 towards the Intel based Macs. I used to be able to cut all my stuff in the G5 with no issues, uploading from Digibeta. I really like to editing now, but that doesnt mean I didnt have to add a couple K's to my system.

 

[Kyle Mallory]

Dino's right. Hell, my DIT cart alone would have a $40,000 replacement cost if it went away tomorrow. He and I are probably the guys who deal with some of the largest clients in LA... fast shoots need instant turnaround and big clients like big toys.

Brook

Just following this thread, and thought I would chime in my .02 worth. I think you have a valid concern about the various models canabolizing the market, but I also think as someone pointed out, that it won't be all that bad.

75% of all projects will need a Sc FF35. A Sc FF35 rental might be 200$/day.
15% of all projects will need a Ep S35. An Ep S35 rental might be $500/day.
8% of all projects will need a Ep F35. An Ep F35 rental might be $1200/day.
2% of all project will need an Ep 645. An Ep 645 rental might be $3000/day (maybe even upwards of $4k/day?).

The factor of which projects will need which camera is based on the differences of the camera. The point is, the more niche that a camera fulfills (a smaller piece of the pie) people will be willing to pay an exponentially higher rental rate for the capabilities of that camera. I'm just speculating on the rental rates, but if a project deems a need for a 645, and there is only 2 in a thousand mile radius, and the going rate for both of those cameras is $5000/day, without any weekly discounts, etc. and that is what the 2% of the project requires.. they projects that can afford it, will.

I think its a mistake to think (fyi, you are correct in /your/ thinking) that just because the 645 can shoot S35, that people will be willing to pay for a 645 at $3k/day over an Sc F35. It doesn't make sense for the producer/DP.

I'm considering buying the Ep F35, taking this model into account. After reading through this thread, I think I'll buy an Sc S35 because at the price point, its a trival "add-on".

I send my R1 out about once every 3 weeks, on average for two to three days (a 3:20 ratio). No a super strong rental market in Utah, bit it pays for itself. Going to the Ep, I hope will give me a niche that will probably kill my rental frequency to 1:30, but will also give me higher-end clients who are willing to pay a premium for the extra lattitude, frame rate, etc.

I also think that the quality of service, and in particular, the span of services that you offer will also play a role. Ie, you DI cart. Sure, you can rent a Sc F35 for $200/day (and nothing else), and for some productions that is fine. But again, discriminating clients would rather pay $1200/day for a Sc F35 knowing that they get a top-rate DIT and his cart for onset dailies, color management, data processing and archival.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

It's not so much the lowering of the cost of equipment and the increase in owner/operators that concerns me. It's that a $7,000 camera and a $43,000 camera do the exact same thing for a lot of productions.

I think you are right Brook. But the extra dynamic range of the Monstro chip and electronics will be worth money to a client who cares about the image. How much money will vary from client to client I suppose.. but that is an advantage of Epic or Scarlet FF over older and cheaper RED cameras.
I'd love to buy a 645 myself, but I can't imagine many clients actually wanting me to film in medium format. I'm going to get a FF35 Scarlet because it has the better dynamic range and I want it to replace my 5D, but the vast majority of paying clients aren't going to care about more that 4K S35 for the next few years I don't think. I mean how many people even get to film-out @ 2K?
However if we are serious about taking stills or a new "stills-like" motion picture format (meaning a new art form that RED is making possible), then 645 or 617 are suddenly very attractive I think. If I had the money I would buy a 645, but I don't think it would be a business investment unless I could carve a little niche for myself..

 

[CJ Roy]

There are two different approaches here, both are legit. Brook's and Dino's is a specific need, I get by fine with a Macbook Pro and a UPS on a $200 rock-n-roller cart.

Agreed. Depending on the job and the client, you may need more or you may need less. Best to be prepared for large jobs, but there is such a thing as too much for the smaller ones. One size doesn't necessarily fit all.

And for the record, everyone that I've come across that has worked with Dino, always speaks very highly of him.

-CJ