Assimilate has released SCRATCH RED Pre-Post

[Bing Bailey]

The Passion

The Passion

The passion is oozing out of this forum. I think everyone wants the same thing. they want the highest quality possible with no compromises. 2 years ago none of us could have imagined that RED would come along. its raised all of our expectations maybe to insane levels.

the tools that have been denied us through price are almost within our grasp. even with assimilates price they are pioneers. they brought the DI price down in significant ways compared to their competitors. no we can't pickup a copy yet. but in the future who knows. we all want the best quality. apple colour could turn into something amazing. hell maybe apple will buy assimilate and we'll all end up getting apple scratch next year.

guys keep up the passion but lets not let it turn to poison in the forum. remember we all want the same thing. I hope to be editing in 2k and finishing in 4k on my 16 core dual GPU mac going straight to digital masters two years from now.

 

[Chris Kenny]

Red has chosen to initially focus on one affordable workflow (2K though QuickTime) and one higher-end workflow (SCRATCH), and compatibility with industry standards for high-end finishing (DPX, etc.). This seems perfectly reasonable to me. What more could they really do? They can't launch solutions for every editing and finishing environment in the world simultaneously. Nobody could. And Red is a pretty small company.

I suppose they could release source code to a reference implementation of Redcode, but realistically most vendors wouldn't take that and run with it of their own initiative anyway. If they want to implement native Redcode support, they'll wait for Red to have the resources to help them. And I suspect Redcode is still being tweaked sufficiently often that having a bunch of third-parties trying to work with it would lead to a big mess at the moment, rather than more production-ready workflows.

 

[RivaiC]

Ok, let's bitch and talk about putting down Clipster price to 55K or 3K whatever. Man, it's so expensive, right ? It's only one out there in the market handles 4K. Maybe it will fade out soon when someone innovative enough and start doing something. Overhead is high, no one wants to invest in it for rebel spirit people, how many people is like laguun here can invest $$$.$$$, anyone ? Or maybe someone already start doing it and show some promising result altho not there yet and but keep on development furiously, maybe Scratch ? O maybe no, apple color, around the corner which have LOTS of bugs, but you save tons of money ! So maybe clipster will fade away soon. So let's bitch why color isn't 4K yet, slow on development ? No demand ? what's up with the bugs ? and what? Nvidia drivers sucks, from apple ? apple is young. Color is only v1.**, oh, i shouldn't expect too much and it's young, very young. I can understand, people has to start somewhere. So why bitch about RED and Scratch in its young age ? You're bitching your 3 years old kids why he hasn't go and play rugby, you have play RUGBY ASAP, like now ! your big brother already play it, where's your muscles ?

Avid, the high price, hardly any innovation for long unlike FCP, but people still keep it like a king. Heyy...we have AVID Nitris or Adrenaline, you know. FCP ? errr...no, maybe for DIY ? Ah, depends on market, both professional tools of course. But we have AVID you know, AVID, high end stuff, we're proud of it (and expensive) !

And BTW, it's 2007. Let's talk about it when future comes. RED is the future for now and maybe Scratch. Don't talk future, future or further future, like fortune teller (most tell you bad things anyway, unless you give them bigger money, trust me on this one). 3D Stereoscopic will be home made production soon ? I would love that discussion.

So what cheap really means? Do we have to the extend where client can afford themselves and no longer need post houses ? and later everyone will have their own DI suite at home. I don't get the ideas here. What is the motivation behind the proposal. Don't let the cheap price shoot ourselves later, which is my biggest worry.

And Evolve, you owned Avid. Do you feel regret and pain now after u owned it since FCP launch ? And how does this affect your business ?

my 2 cents, free to object it, anyhow and anyway, it's cheap 2 cents

 

[Anthony Gratl]

Rob here (using Deanan's account): I'm not obfuscating. I've started working on this 1.5 years ago and still working on it 7 days a week. It's just not as simple as it sounds. We are still refining stuff every day which would be a nightmare if we opened everything up to everyone.

If we had done what's been suggested the product would've been delayed for at least a year while we figure out the (RED ONE specific) image processing etc.

Unfortunately it has *everything* to do with a lack of time. I soooo wish that wasn't the case so we wouldn't have to work 7 days a week. (still a kick-ass job with a kick ass boss though

Deanan: and get at most 4 hours of sleep a night, every night...
Apple and Assimilate have put ALOT of resources to making
this possible a long time ago (when everyone else was doubtful) and we are committed to making the respective workflows solid first. As Rob says, if we try to support even one more vendor, all the workflows will suffer.

Cool Rob and Deenan. I understand the long term commitment thing, where the people who believe in the vision at the beginning get the first shot at the rewards at the end. And until the two of you enunciated what it's taking to do it, I confess that I didn't see it as THAT all-encompassing time wise, although I know what that feels like, having worked on projects around the clock. So when you put it that way, it resonates. So thank you, and everyone at Red, for the efforts and vision and creativity. You have opened up a world of possibilities for me and many many others, and the tools you are creating will change the future, and for that, I am grateful. (whisper: i just like avid more ya know, and i know they can be a bunch of pompous slackasses, but imo the platform has way better edit flow)

 

[Anthony Gratl]

And Evolve, you owned Avid. Do you feel regret and pain now after u owned it since FCP launch ? And how does this affect your business ?

I still own Avid. I just bought Media Composer 2.7 and SDI, BUT I bought them slightly used, at a price that was less than a third of retail. Which is generally how I keep from starving as an indi filmmaker. Um pain and regret? No, that's reserved for serious issues in my life, and when I'm trying to grow and mature as a member of this species on the planet. And life is really too short for much regret (at least in my experience so far)
I tried FCP for a while, edited a few series on it, and had it on my laptop for a few of my doc projects and trailers, but it didn't work for me. I wish it had, as it has many good things to offer from an integration standpoint. And that Red codec drag and drop simplicity.
When I went back to an Avid, I was actually relieved, believe it or not. It was a relief to be cutting on that interface.
My business? Actually I still find that people are more impressed with the name Avid than the name FCP, which I think has become the assumed defacto standard for low budget projects and indi's. And so my editing business actually hasn't suffered, but that's because I'm fairly good at the skill of editing, and I'm honest with people. But I haven't done it on a full time basis for years. Rather I've invested most of my time into things that really matter to me, which of course involves lots of sacrifices, but that's why my diesel truck is pretty old, and my red will be new(actually, it'll be the first new thing of significant cost that I've bought in many years, and I'm still young:biggrin: ).

 

[Thomas Mathai]

Scratch isn't in beta Thomas. No attitude here, just trying to put a view forward. Sorry that it's not the same as everyone elses.


Yup. Never said it wasn't. Just was pointing out that things are changing fast, and that they might be able to get a step up with a lower pricetag. Again, MHO.


Gee, that's not very proactive is it?


Right. And I guess I think that's exactly the reason why things should change. In the spirit of the Red Revolution.


Sorry? First off, that comment was made in regards to something that mmost had said, and secondly, editing on Avid was fairly high end post for a long time on longer narrative work. Now, finishing and ad work is a different story. But time also caught up with Avid. They were the only game in town for so long that they didn't bother upgrading their systems or lowering prices, and then FCP showed up, out of the blue, and changed the game.


Actually, you don't need experience to figure that one out. But thanks for that. Out of curiosity, what's your background?


Who said 'free software'? I'm aware of what DI involves. Although I would submit that the conform is part of systems integration. And someone has posted on this site that they put together hardware for about 2.5K that when bundled with Scratch handled the 2K output in realtime. So that coupled with a 3k software package works out to roughly 6 grand. Which doesnt really mean anything in relation to your comment, but then again, this comment really had nothing to do with any of my posts either.


Well that's fine, that's your opinion on the matter. It's my belief that things have already changed in high end post, and will continue to change. Better and more of it for less means that there's less profit margin if you've got high overhead. It's analogous to the situation with outsourcing manufacturing to the third world come to think of it, although instead of cheaper labour, it's cheaper software as a result of coding innovation and more coders. Lots of post shops and high end shops have gone belly up in Toronto, mostly because of high overhead costs related to hardware and client servicing making them uncompetitive in an increasingly competitive market. It's no different for DI shops either by the way. Why would a client pay for a service they can attain at half or a quarter of the cost? Know what will happen if DI shops lose their customers to upstarts who find workarounds, who lose only a fraction of the quality, but save a great deal of money? You can say goodbye to small independant software companies like Assimilate, which sucks, because independant and small to me often equates with innovation and progress. Kinda like Red.
But I don't know any of it. It's just an opinion I have you know? And I share it. The DI market is a very niche market. It's a real question as to the number of 4K finishes that will be required in the future. Maybe the stuff will be beamed onto our 4K cinema screens on the wall at home in realtime in time for the 2010 olympics. That would change the market for sure. And the price of systems would plummet like a stone. Or not. I believe I'll have a beer.:shifty:

When I said the software is in beta, I meant what's available directly from Red.

I'm sure Assimilate will lower their prices as time goes on.

My definition of being proactive is finding a solution to the problem at hand. That means using whatever workaround I can.

Things always change, but what's wrong with working with DPX or TIFF sequences? It's a workflow that has worked well, why put it down?

What's my background? I worked in the 2k/4k for like 13 years, everything from a Bondi Blue iMac running After Effects to proprietary systems. I'm sure you'll find me somewhere on IMDB like many others here.

I consider Apple Color to be free, since for many upgraders like me it's a new package for the same upgrade price. For those who bought FCS 2 for $1300, it's about $217, if you price out the apps equally.

Conforming is NOT part of system integration. Conforming is an editorial function to match the high resolution material to the final edit, similar to negative cutting.

System integration is IT work, be it setting up networks and sans or building the workflow pipeline.

So someone here put together a $2.5K system that can handle 2k resolution in real time. Is this using the Cineform codec or using uncompressed data?

Is this really real time? Meaning once you create a change, it's done, no need to render, or is it real time preview, then hit the render button and go get lunch.

Post houses close up all the time for various reasons, and new ones pop up all the time. This isn't a new thing, it's been happening for years.

If a client is getting good as or better quality service for half or quarter of the cost, then others will drop their prices. That has always been the case.

The cheaper software and hardware is also available to those high end post houses and they use it.

A workaround is just a temporary solution until someone comes out with a better way of doing things. It won't kill the small independent software companies.

One day a DI will be dirt cheap and done in less than a day. But then there will be something else the high end post houses will be doing.

 

[RivaiC]

.....but that's why my diesel truck is pretty old, and my red will be new(actually, it'll be the first new thing of significant cost that I've bought in many years, and I'm still young:biggrin: ).

Despite your other post. I think you put high hope on RED too. I came to see a little more different views, that when someone complain about things they actually care about it very much. If you don't care, you don't bother to read, see, search and look or even arguing. Maybe it's the way of bringing out the discussion that need to be fix.

While it's true DI stuff is on revolution right now and young. Price factor of your investment and return value will determines what is affordable or not, and the problem arise since it's different for everyone while our will always want the most top highend gear whether you realize it or not. And yes, i notice very much when company said about Avid, they seem to be very confident and proud like the meta message "We own AVID, don't play the fool", while for FCP, they still say we own it, but on a different less excitement tone. I find that part to be true. It's branding. How one company puts its position to the heart of the customer at the first place depending on the timing on the market as well.

Anyway, at one tragic story, one company closed down, own a damn highend gear, right thru arri laser facilities and leave in a damn lots of debt. Avid fault for being too expensive ? Or Arri ? No, i found out it's the market in your area.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

It's branding. How one company puts its position to the heart of the customer at the first place depending on the timing on the market as well.

so very, very true.

 

[AlienFX]

Rob..... I got a question for you.... I don't know if you wanna give any insight on this though, but how do you program an actual codec, do you use an existing computer language like c++ or anything of that sort? Can you point me into a direction of where to learn this?

Thanks.

 

[M Most]

Lots of post shops and high end shops have gone belly up in Toronto, mostly because of high overhead costs related to hardware and client servicing making them uncompetitive in an increasingly competitive market.

I would say that the primary reason for post shops hurting in Toronto is the fact that much of the US production that used to go up there has dried up due to the exchange rate ceasing to be in Canada's favor, as well as much more competitive alternative locations, such as New York, Louisiana, and New Mexico. But if you want to believe that its due to equipment costs, that's up to you.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Rob..... I got a question for you.... I don't know if you wanna give any insight on this though, but how do you program an actual codec, do you use an existing computer language like c++ or anything of that sort? Can you point me into a direction of where to learn this?.

If you're new to programming, jumping right into video codecs is probably a bad idea. There is no learning curve there, you're staring up a vertical cliff.

But to answer your question, you use existing programming languages and tools. C++ being one of them. Platforms differ in their available tools and requirements. For example, on the Mac, you can use C++, but there's also Objective-C and you would choose one over the other depending on the project and which libraries you need or if the application is to be supported on multiple platforms, etc... For performance tuning and platform-specific optimizations, you may find yourself using assembly language.

If you want to learn programming, I would start at your local library, perhaps the book store. Take a programming course or two at a local college. There's a lot to learn in addition to just learning the programming language(s) too. There's a lot of theory and accepted practices. It helps immensely to understand the architecture you're developing for and how it works, not to mention the math and theory behind what you're attempting to program -- especially if it's software like image processing or compression algorithms.

...So much to learn, it will boggle your mind. If you're thinking about programming something like a video codec, you may find it more efficient to simply hire a capable programmer for the job than to try and learn from the ground up. Not only is there mountains of stuff to learn, but writing great code is just as much art as it is science.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

...Although I would submit that the conform is part of systems integration.

...

The DI market is a very niche market. It's a real question as to the number of 4K finishes that will be required in the future. Maybe the stuff will be beamed onto our 4K cinema screens on the wall at home in realtime in time for the 2010 olympics. ...

Evolve,

I like the way you phrase your discussion...

A couple of things:

1) I would submit that conform is definitely not systems integration. Conforming is its own art form in many ways. When everything from offline is perfect and all media is where it belongs - then it can be pretty rudimentary. Having done professional Online for many years, I can remember... ummm... exactly zero times when the offline is perfectly clean and things just work like they're supposed to. Trailer conform is probably the best example. Trailer editors pull media from the weirdest and wildest places. An old NTSC downconvert of an original 2K scan is thrown in right beside some web graphics flying across the screen, dissolving into a stop-motion montage of production stills. The sources are, of course, meticulously documented and all lined up neatly on carts in the editing room. : )

2) DI is a niche market. Okay. Define "DI." (seriously)

Cheers,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Bruce Allen]

Trailer editors pull media from the weirdest and wildest places. An old NTSC downconvert of an original 2K scan is thrown in right beside some web graphics flying across the screen, dissolving into a stop-motion montage of production stills. The sources are, of course, meticulously documented and all lined up neatly on carts in the editing room. : )

Hahahaha! Sometimes the filmmakers forget to shoot the right shots for their movie, so we have to go and get those shots from other places ourselves :shiftyph34r:

Suddenly when version 54 of the trailer gets approved, we find that the stock footage company lost the film negatives for that shot the editor cut in, have a made rush to find an alternate shot, etc... it's pretty exciting I agree

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Chris Kenny]

2) DI is a niche market. Okay. Define "DI." (seriously)

Heh. This is a good point. As the "scan from film" and "print to film" steps of DI have become optional, the lines have blurred between DI and other sorts of online conforming. There are workflows which are clearly not DI -- the sort of workflows you might see in, say, broadcast television. And there are workflows that clearly are DI -- feeding a few terabytes of DPX files through a Pablo.

But then there's all kinds of other stuff. Is finishing in SCRATCH from REDCODE RAW files DI? Does it depend on what format you output to, or on whether the project is intended for theatrical release?

If you convert REDCODE RAW to ProRes and online at 2K in Final Cut Pro, and then grade in Color, is that a DI workflow? Does it suddenly become DI if you have Final Cut output to DPX via Glue Tools and grade the DPX sequences in Color? Is it still a DI if you use this workflow on a project that wouldn't have traditionally been shot on film?

If the footage in your project actually was scanned from film and will be printed back to film from a digital master, is your workflow automatically a DI workflow, even if you did your final conform in iMovie?

Or does "DI" just mean "whatever high-priced digital workflow Hollywood is using this week" these days?

 

[Thor Wixom]

If they made Ferrari's for $30,000 they would sell more of them as well.

They do. They're called Evo's and STi's.

2005 Ferrari F430 Spider:

0 - 60 mph 4.6 seconds
0 - 1/4 mile 12.4 seconds

(Source: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=106859)

2005 Subaru Impreza WRX STi

0 - 60 mph 4.7 seconds
0 - 1/4 mile 13.3 seconds

2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evo MR

0 - 60 mph 5.7 seconds
0 - 1/4 mile 13.3 seconds

(Source: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0410_rally_sedan_comparison/specs_price.html)

In many ways, the Red is analogous to being the STi or Evo of the movie industry.

I can only hope that Assimilate will become that for color grading and conforming, since they have a great product and a good head start. If not, someone else will seize the opportunity to fill the price/performance void.

Right now, I am avoiding that $50k+ price tag, not because I can't afford it or I won't make money in the here and now with such a system, but because I don't want to end up competing with a $10k package that runs on a $2k computer in 2 years.

At that point, I have to cut my prices so deeply, that it's not profitable enough on the second half of the lease. Just dollars and cents.

-Thor

 

[Rob Lohman]

Okay... I've slept on all of this and here are some more thoughts.

First, I've been reacting a bit harsh at some times. I guess that's what you can get when you work hard on something you love and then people want more and more (understandably) So sorry about that, hopefully it shows how passionate everyone is on our, even we get dragged into heated discussions!

Second, I can see how some people might be disappointed in the areas we lack (talking workflow wise here). I've been in situations like these before and it sucks.

Third, to resolve the above we actually have to do a mountain of work. It's unfortunately not as simple as opening something up or giving out the code / algorithms (there's is some extremely complicated stuff in here), especially considering the relative small team and the amount of support that would require

Forth, we are working hard on post-production / workflow support every single day. Lots more will be coming and of course we are looking into opening things up and supporting other apps. We want people to use our camera, that's why we have a software development team in the first place!

Last I want to thank you all for your discussions and comments. We try to read 'em all (even that is a daunting task) and a lot of this stuff has made the product(s) better! Please keep this going, but I do like to ask that you consider our point and give us time to work on things (as you know we *ARE* in development, and we'll always will be I think, haha). We've tried to give our users a good base to start with and I hope and believe we've succeeded in that.

It can only get better!

Thanks,

 

[Rob Lohman]

Rob..... I got a question for you.... I don't know if you wanna give any insight on this though, but how do you program an actual codec, do you use an existing computer language like c++ or anything of that sort? Can you point me into a direction of where to learn this?

Yes, you use existing languages. We use C, C++, Objective-C and Assembly

For QuickTime the Apple developer site has documentation and samples. Microsoft has similar stuff in their SDK's and MSDN library.

Jeff is right, it is a tall cliff and this stuff is extremely hard. QuickTime is pretty complicated to work with in the right way. Compatibility is one of the big ones as is performance with this sort of thing (Assembly and multi-threading fun comes to mind).

If it were easy, everyone would be doing it But if you like challenges then you can go a long way!

 

[Steve Sanacore]

So what cheap really means? Do we have to the extend where client can afford themselves and no longer need post houses ? and later everyone will have their own DI suite at home. I don't get the ideas here. What is the motivation behind the proposal. Don't let the cheap price shoot ourselves later, which is my biggest worry.

And Evolve, you owned Avid. Do you feel regret and pain now after u owned it since FCP launch ? And how does this affect your business ?

my 2 cents, free to object it, anyhow and anyway, it's cheap 2 cents

The cost of any software or hardware is only relevant to the work you are trying to accomplish and how much money you will generate from the purchase. It's a simple return on investment. For a busy post house, I would assume they buy what they need when they need it.

But the RED camera is opening a new market for independent filmmakers and they will need solutions that are way below the level of cost that a busy post house can afford or justify. I will be happy finishing my personal projects in 2K on FCP (if my understanding is correct). My commercial work goes out to a post house who hopefully will have Scratch or whatever to finish in 4K if needed. Although for the present I think HD (1080P or 2K) is more than enough for almost any commercial use.

I would guess most RED owners do not run or own post production houses and will be looking for a solution to edit their footage on FCP or something else on a Mac or PC. I think the RED people know this and are helping to move in that direction.

But you can't rely on the high cost of cameras or edit suites to save your career. Apple and Adobe will eventually take over the post production software business unless Avid and others stay one step ahead with innovation.

Only talent and good business practice will keep you busy in our competitive world.

 

[Deanan]

In many ways, the Red is analogous to being the STi or Evo of the movie industry.

To me it's more like an Ariel Atom (light, fast and reasonably priced)

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Okay... I've slept on all of this and here are some more thoughts.

Why are you sleeping?

Code.

Code.

Code.

Just kidding - Happy Thanksgiving Rob!!

Keep up the good work and don't let the noise get to you.