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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

One fear...

Of course you can do that, keep your Red One and pay full price for Epic, but not, as I understand it, for Epic X; Epic X is a special model for original Red One owners available only as a trade in.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Brook Willard said:
The DP says what he'll need for the project and the house fits him with the appropriate camera body. Don't need the extra dynamic range? Go for the Scarlet! Think you might do high speed? Get the Epic S35. Need that dynamic range? Get the Epic FF35.
Click to expand...

I hate to bring this up because it only adds on to the defeatist outlook, but the Scarlet FF35 is a Monstro sensor. It has the same exact sensor as the Epic FF35's minus the higher frame rates and REDcode 225 will be replaced by REDcode 100. So DR will be identical with both. It basically makes the Epic FF35 out to be a high speed cam.
 
Leo Ticheli said:
Of course you can do that, keep your Red One and pay full price for Epic, but not, as I understand it, for Epic X; Epic X is a special model for original Red One owners available only as a trade in.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
Click to expand...

You don't need to trade in, but you need an R1 to get the deal. (28k$ or 28k - 17.5k$)
 
Joseph Ward said:
I think Red maybe risking more than rental houses? I think Red will do fine because the ''Pros'' who can afford the best, will get the best.

What I fear is that people who wish to corner the market, whether rental houses/DPs etc., are never going to be happy and would wish Red would stop giving great cameras for lower prices, even if they couldn't do anything before Red came along! Red helped some, make money, by giving them something that they could never afford. Those people who were so unhappy with the camera price fixing/held back technology/monopoly/etc., are now becoming the same as the people they hated. Irony is life. I hope that isn't happening?

People must not be afraid and just adapt and be confident in themselves and their work first. If someone can be successful from starting a business out of a garage then....
Click to expand...

Best post I have seen a while. You nailed it, Ward.

I am really sick and tired of hearing people tell Jim to build these cameras so as to increase the profits of their little rental/DPing business. He is building these cameras to kick ass and take names, not to custom fit your little business model.

If you have legit feature and tech requests/concerns that is one thing. But people trying to influence the nature of these cameras based on their own monetary interest is dragging this forum down.

This used to be a place to discuss tech and cameras. Now it seems to be overrun with people looking for handouts from Jim.
icon13.gif
 
Just to further clarify, I am more than guilty of the above, from a business standpoint, the DSMC line of Scarlet's are bad for rental houses/individual businesses, but from a larger pov, it is absolutely AMAZING to see what RED is giving the people considering the cost.

Jim is undoubtedly a selfless man.

This really reminds me of when BMW was considering releasing a 1 series line which was set to compete with the Honda Accord price range. :greedy:
 
Brook,
I think you've answered your own question. Going overboard on the high-end and counting on producers to understand the difference is a dangerous game.
There is likely a "sweet spot" in the middle, perhaps the combo that Leo has hit upon. I'll likely do much the same (for sure I will get the "special" upgrade to the Epic) But if there is an opportunity in your market to work the high end, then it may make sense...
Bing is very astute in his observations about the music business and audio recording technology. Can a $8,000 home studio sound as good as Abbey Road or Gold Star? No. But at some point in the market, that fact will never matter.
I still rent out my old SDX-900. I'm astounded that people still want that camera. I'm also astounded how often editors get to choose our cameras for us!
Rambling now...
This is good thread. Lots of good observations.
Cheers,
Harry
 
Brook,

It sounds like you need an EpicS35 or FF35 and you want an Epic645. You are trying to reconcile the difference between a smart investment and an awesome toy.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying a 645 isn't a smart investment, in fact I think it will be. I think you can ROI an Epic645 no problem. You especially.

You can also probably sell it for around what you paid for it in some cases more. The same goes for a S35 Epic. But if you are basing your purchasing decision on the idea that the more expensive camera needs to be so much better than it's counterpart as to carve an absolute niche for itself in the market, equal too it's addition price. You are failing to understand how the film equipment market actually works. It's actually the inverse of what you are arguing.

A camera can have 10% more performance value than it's competitor and find a market for 200% more of the price. There are many examples of this today, my expectation is that they will continue. It's really about finding that market, not about justifying it.

It's kind of weird that you think the complete lineup of Red cameras are somehow undercutting each other, forgetting that there are all kinds of other cameras out there also "undercutting" the Red line even though they aren't as good as Red. More than a few idiots have already suggested selling my Red One and shooting on a 5DMKII... I'm working on a commercial right now that is incorporating D90 footage. On a similar note though, I'm currently testing and probably about to buy a non-red digital cinema camera specifically because I think found a market for it and so far I really like it. (A hush falls across the room...what do you mean... NON-RED.... I said good day sir...) It's because over the past year I've learned plenty about what people actually want to rent and why DP's make certain choices. I might buy a film camera as well.

Don't get the wrong idea, I'll be buying a S35 Epic as soon as I can and bigger ones someday too. (Long live Redcode. All hail the king.) Knowing a little about how you make your living I'll suggest mildly that you would be smart to buy a used Red one as soon as possible and then an S35 Epic as soon as you can get your hands on one and then get your 645. Me too. I'll be naming mine "Conspicuous Consumption".

Just a little friendly advice from someone with just a few years on you... just a few :shiftyph34r:

Ian
 
Well one good way to look at the Epic X is that you will have one prior to the S-storm of people who will later own one.

You will have an Epic I/O, CF and Battery module ready for when you do get the 645.

Another option is just owning a RED One & upgrading to a Mysterium X (Which should give you the exact same quality as the S35 Epic) minus the modular body.

Lots of options.
 
Alexander Nikishin said:
Another option is just owning a RED One & upgrading to a Mysterium X (Which should give you the exact same quality as the S35 Epic) minus the modular body.

Lots of options.
Click to expand...

I'm hoping that this will be the case but is yet to be announced if all the features of the S35 EPIC will be the same in the REDONE with the X sensor. Hope your correct on this, but then again, I'm still quite uncertain what I'm going to do at this point. I might just keep my REDONE as is (wait and utilize my trade in at a later time) and purchase two Scarlets and outfit a small 3D rig. Anyhow, thinking out loud again, back to Brook's dilemma.
 
Ah, Alexander. . . but will a RED One with a Mysterium-X upgrade actually shoot identical images as an Epic-X? Will the REDCodes be the same? Will a slower REDCode in the RED One make a visible difference.

I don't know enough about compression algorithms to know if it will make a difference or not, but I assume that the RED One won't be getting anything nearly as quick as REDCode 250.

Stephen
 
True Stephen, that is yet to be seen.

At the end of the day, I really want a 645 system.

That will run me 43k for the brain and another (guessing here) 5k for the recording module, I/O module, PL mount and support system (base plate/rods, etc.)

That's a total of 48k, with taxes let's call it 50k with the CA business tax exempt.

With my RED One trade in of 17.5k, the total would then be 32.5k. Add in the Mysterium X upgrade to the RED One to hold me over until the 645 is released and were talking a total spending of $37k.

The other option......

Trade in the RED One for the Epic X, with discounts the cost will be 10.5k. Add on 43k for the 645 brain when it's released and a possible 1k for the support system. That totals 54.5k. I think that I can reasonably sell my Epic X brain when the 645 comes out for around 24k leaving me with a total upgrade cost of 30.5k.

So, with that being said the best route will be (assuming that all the free modules RED throws in there for current RED owners totals to around 5k worth of gear) would be to go with the Epic X, then onto a 645, in my case ofcourse.

Sorry for thinking aloud to those who don't care, but I'm assuming that there may be others who are in the same boat as me.
 
The Epic X is a lot more of a theat to the R1 than any Scarlet, mainly due to slow-mo.
One question is, how would a R1 ugraded with Mysterium-X fare, when compared to an Epic-X???

Emmanuel
 
Alexander Nikishin said:
Sorry for thinking aloud to those who don't care, but I'm assuming that there may be others who are in the same boat as me.
Click to expand...

Yup. Same boat here except I'm looking at the FF35 instead of the 645.

I was planning on just waiting until the Monstro was ready before trading in my RED. But with the announcement of Epic-X, the decision just got a lot harder (I wonder how much those free modules are worth?). I have a feeling there will be a lot of almost new "Limited Edition" Epic-X brains for sale when the Monstro becomes available.
 
I think the right answer to Brooks original post is:

Buy the Epic 645 with all the necessary modules, and a Scarlet S35 brain as well.

Those $7000 extra for the Scarlet S35 brain will allow you to offer a lower-cost package to those clients that want one so you don't lose their business. If they want more features, tell them you have the 645 they can swap into their package for $$$$. Plus, you have a backup S35 5K brain in case something happens to the 645.

$7000 seems like an awfully small price to pay for a potentially huge increase in business.
 
Emmanuel Cambier said:
The Epic X is a lot more of a theat to the R1 than any Scarlet, mainly due to slow-mo.
One question is, how would a R1 ugraded with Mysterium-X fare, when compared to an Epic-X???

Emmanuel
Click to expand...

Isn't that the point though? I know RED will support the R1… but from a certain standpoint they would be better off if everyone with a R1 traded it in.
 
It's my strongly felt opinion that the S35 Scarlet is a foolish choice for anyone under any circumstances, other than it's slightly sooner availability.

Is there any professional individual or organization that cannot afford an additional $2700.00 for the vastly superior FF35 Scarlet? Bearing in mind that this additional cost is but one part of the cost of a complete system, it's quite likely less than 10% of the total cost of a complete package. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Frankly, I feel much the same way about the S35 Epic. Only because I hope the FF35 Scarlet will serve as my A camera for sync shooting am I opting for the Epic X upgrade from our Red One.

Added to my thinking as of today is the fear that the actual delivery of Monstro cameras may not be as soon as predicted. History can often be instructive.

Let's face it, if the Monstro cameras were available at the same time as the Mysterium models, how many of us would choose the lesser of the two?

What delightful choices we do have!

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
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