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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

CineForm NEO 4K Beta, RedCine compatible, and available for trial.

thanks for that fred,
I appreciate the answers.

Stricko
 
Mike Zinner said:
Great, now we are getting somewhere and to have the Cineform Intermediate as an output codec for RedCine is great.

But my "real" optimal workflow would be - instead of using RedCine - to directly stream RedCode RAW to CineForm RAW and then work with those files directly on the PP timeline / in AE.

1) No de-bayer + encoding times
2) Retain the flexibility of RAW directly on the PP timeline and not being locked down to the color settings you set in RedCine before rendering out
3) Maybe speed improvements during playback

David, could you comment on the 2K / 1K playback speed of 4K Cineform Intermediate vs. 4K Cineform RAW files? And could the Cineform RAW be extended to store the additional metainfo found in RedCode Raw (once the conversion is figured out :) )?
Click to expand...

In 2K, Cineform RAW usually is harder on the system than Cineform444. I believe this is because the debayer has to be done live with RAW files. I assume 4K would be the same way.
 
McCarthyTech said:
In 2K, Cineform RAW usually is harder on the system than Cineform444. I believe this is because the debayer has to be done live with RAW files. I assume 4K would be the same way.
Click to expand...

Once you develop RAW to 444 no more demosaic is required, that is why 444 can be faster. However much of the RAW speed was impacted by 3D LUT processing, which also gets cooked in once you develop to 444.
 
David I'm wondering since you mentioned that cineform in pp is best in a avi wrapper, is there any advantage to render from redcine in a uncompressed qt format, then take those to ae and render out the cineform avi wrapped files from there? Or is it fine quality wise to do two passes with the cineform codec, being redcine to cineform qt, then cineform qt to cineform avi within ae.

Thanks
stricko
 
Stricko, Redcine renders into CineForm MOVs (as I suspect you know). As part of the Neo 4K install there is an installed utility called HD Link (I know, but we had the name first....) that will literally re-wrap MOV to AVI (and vice versa) without touching the underlying compression. Although it requires an extra step, it is NOT a generation hit, and because it's a re-wrap it's about as fast as a file copy.
 
sweet, I get it now,
one more question if u don't mind,
cineform raw vs 444
Ive read the write up on your site about the raw,
I guess I'm wondering is it advised to go from redcine to
cineform raw and edit with those, or go straight to 444,
sorry for this newb question, just trying to understand
for what type of situations one would chose raw or 444
and if chosing raw, at what point does one render to 444 etc.

Just trying to understand the offerings cineform has in a practical sense.

Thanks for your patience with these questions.

Stricko
 
CineForm RAW like REDCODE RAW is an aquisition format, it contains the potential to be "developed" to full 4:4:4, but is stored using the very efficient bayer structure. CineForm RAW was the first of it kind, Redcode the second, currently they are all only two (and let's kept it that way :) .) Out of RedCine you render to CineForm 444.

Interesting facts:

CineForm RAW -- one value per pixel (bayer format.)
CineForm Intermediate 422 -- averages two values per pixel.
CineForm 444 -- three values per pixel.
CineForm 4444 (+alpha channel) -- four values per pixel.

All are based on the same wavelet engine.
 
thanks,
so at what point in a workflow
would someone render to cineform raw?

Or do I not need to worry about it, just shoot red, render out to cineform 444
and edit and color grade away, then output to whatever medium I want.

stricko
 
Stricko, the CineForm workflow to support Red is to shoot RedCode, then render from RedCine into CineForm 444 as your new online master. We will be offering *additional* workflow elements in the not-too-distant future to further improve efficiency, but we're not yet ready to announce details. Existing customers of CineForm are accustomed to our regular feature improvements, and we intend the same in our support for Red. Our final forward-looking comment is that we think you'll like the features we have planned....
 
Just to clarify for myself and everyone else, there is no way to render any file to CineformRAW, correct. Currently, the only way to generate a Cineform RAW file is through the SI-2K or other Raw Digital Cinema Camera, correct?

And on a related note, there is no way to trim a Cineform RAW file without "developing" it to Cinefrom444 or 422, right? If there is, how do you do it?
 
On a side note, Cineform RAW files can be used directly on the Premiere Pro timeline and you have the ability to modify the (almost) same color settings as you do in RedCine - with the big advantage of being able to do this right in the editing application and not having to render any intermediate file in a separate application first. Only if you do secondary color correction in e.g. Color Finesse you would render out to Cinefrom444(4) for the clips you need it and bring them back to the timeline. The rest would go from RAW directly to the final output render.

This doesn't suite everybody of course, but for me it would simplify things a lot if I could keep using the RAW files as long as possible in my workflow to tweak the settings at any time and not be locked in to the settings I made prior editing - and only "develop" the files for the final output rendering.

Their is more information about the Cineform RAW workflow on their site.
 
Ok thanks cineform daves for your explanations, I look forward to
prospect4k, I luv premiere and its going to be great doing 4k right in the
app I know and luv.

Stricko
 
McCarthyTech said:
Just to clarify for myself and everyone else, there is no way to render any file to CineformRAW, correct. Currently, the only way to generate a Cineform RAW file is through the SI-2K or other Raw Digital Cinema Camera, correct?
Click to expand...
Correct. CineForm RAW (and REDCODE for that matter) are acquisition formats, they are not render-to formats. You can theoretically convert from one RAW format to another without developing, but once "developed" the image becomes a traditional YUV or RGB image

McCarthyTech said:
And on a related note, there is no way to trim a Cineform RAW file without "developing" it to Cinefrom444 or 422, right? If there is, how do you do it?
Click to expand...
On an NLE timeline you can manipulate a CineForm RAW clip like any other, so it can be "trimmed" without rendering. Other tools that can trim external to an NLE can theoretically trim CineForm RAW clips too. But...we haven't announced CineForm RAW support for the Red camera, so this discussion is somewhat theoretical. :)
 
David Taylor said:
Correct. CineForm RAW (and REDCODE for that matter) are acquisition formats, they are not render-to formats. You can theoretically convert from one RAW format to another without developing, but once "developed" the image becomes a traditional YUV or RGB image


On an NLE timeline you can manipulate a CineForm RAW clip like any other, so it can be "trimmed" without rendering. Other tools that can trim external to an NLE can theoretically trim CineForm RAW clips too. But...we haven't announced CineForm RAW support for the Red camera, so this discussion is somewhat theoretical. :)
Click to expand...

I notice that you say announced, and not "planned" or "started development for"...:sarcasm:
 
I try to be somewhat precise with words, but to keep you on your toes the word "announce" could encompass "planned" or "started development for".... :greedy:
 
Davids just teted latest beta of 2KDL on beta box (dell M65).
RedCine 2k to CF 2k seems fine with latest Qtime on it.(dont use 7.2)
PPRO2 worked Great as well as RGB play back (its seems faster now on the NV cards) with mov file.

Great job
:weight_lift:
 
It would be a bit misleading to imply that Cineform will be able to open REDCODE RAW without a transcode. RED has agreements in place, at least for a certain time period, that would prohibit this type of native support.

The long term plan is to have REDCODE support, and be supported by, as many companies as possible. But I would be careful about making a purchase based on a loose inference of full support with no time period stated.

Jim
 
No worries there Jim, we're only interested in transcoding, nothing else was being implied. Transcoding everyone's camera format to CineForm is what we do well, native support is a thing for the big NLE vendors. We are quite happy that RedCine works as well as it does for rendering out to CineForm. Once the 4096 wide bug in fixed RedCine we are all set. Thanks for following the thread.
 
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