Old reservation. New chip?

[Movies for the Mind]

from what i read on a post by jim the options for a red owner are:
trade in your redone for full 17.5k credit
dont trade in and dont buy anything
send camera back for new xchip at no xtra cost.

could be wrong but thought thats what was said. not sure when theyre gonna start making the redones with the new chip in them so may not pay to wait if theres no cost except shipping.

I am 100% sure that this is what I was told as well. Word for word.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

not true. There has always been talk of a cost for upgrading to new sensor. Jim never said it would be a free upgrade.

 

[Seth Larney]

I am 100% sure that this is what I was told as well. Word for word.

I am 100% sure that I remember reading that the sensor upgrade for the RED would cost $$$..

I was also under the impression though that there would be a 4K version of the X sensor for the RED ONE, so the sensor wouldn't actually be the EPIC sensor exactly.... Would be good to clarify though.

 

[Häakon]

An upgraded RED ONE should be feature-identical to the Epic. The bodies will be different, but the internal components and capabilities should be the same. That is how the "upgrade" concept was explained to me.

That makes little to no sense to me. If the upgrade makes your RED ONE equivalent to an Epic, then everyone interested in an Epic would just buy a RED ONE and upgrade the specs - why spend extra cash for no reason? Jim stated this near the end of last month:

After the release of Epic, we will offer a sensor upgrade to the RED ONE. More dynamic range with the same specs. New Mysterium X sensor. Should be middle of 2009.

"More dynamic range with the same specs" reads to me as a 4K version of the Mysterium X chip with the enhanced image characteristics that the new sensor brings. Just because the upgraded chip is a Mysterium X variant doesn't mean it has to be 5K. The Scarlet chip is a Mysterium X, too. I could certainly be wrong about this (I would love to know that the RED ONE can be upgraded to a full 5K), but doing so would render buying an Epic completely pointless. Jim seems like a sharper businessman to me than that.

 

[Andrew Benz]

I am 100% sure that I remember reading that the sensor upgrade for the RED would cost $$$..

I was also under the impression though that there would be a 4K version of the X sensor for the RED ONE, so the sensor wouldn't actually be the EPIC sensor exactly.... Would be good to clarify though.

This is my understanding as well.

 

[Brook Willard]

After the release of Epic, we will offer a sensor upgrade to the RED ONE. More dynamic range with the same specs. New Mysterium X sensor. Should be middle of 2009.

I took the "...same specs" as referring to Epic's specs. I agree that it doesn't make much sense, but that quote is difficult to make perfect sense of.

Really we're just a group of monkeys humping a football until somebody in red comes in here and explains their products and policies in detail. I'm adequately confused at this point.

What will the upgrade cost?
What will the upgrade consist of?
What features will the Epic have that an upgraded RED ONE does not?
Will new RED ONEs be sold with or without the upgrade installed at that time?

 

[Paris Remillard]

My guess, not that it matters, is that it will be at least if not more than a year until even Epic or Scarlet are available. Then a bit more time after that that the Red One upgrades are available. I don't think that the upgrade will cost nearly as much as people are thinking, and the new Red Ones will ship with the upgrade at the same $17,500 price. That way the people who are buying new will get the latest and greatest, and those of us who stepped up early will feel like we get to stay on top of things for a reasonable price, or trade up to Epic.

 

[Häakon]

That quote is difficult to make perfect sense of.

Agreed. I can see how it could easily be interpreted either way.

Really we're just a group of monkeys humping a football until somebody in red comes in here and explains their products and policies in detail.

Don't you know that all you have to do is ask your question to get all of the answers you desire? :turned:

So where do we get the real info from then ?

Just ask the question. But people here don't ask first, they just assume the worst and hit the "Submit Reply" button.

Jim

 

[Andrew M.]

I think RED will be 4K sensor and Epic will be 5K.
What we get is just the same technology (beter DR and what not) but less pixels.
???

 

[PeterM]

To much speculation.
But one should be clear. There is no free update for a sensor. And Red never promise that.
Sometimes I am thinking some , really not all, of your folks are like children, never get enough sweets.
In fact Red was in delay so long time they know that maybe some of the clients run in financial trouble to plan over more than one year, thats one of the reason they give let you postpone the really delivery, till you have the money to pay it. The other reason is simple they only can produce a certain numbers of red´s at the moment.
But when Red is in stable production, lets say deliverytime 4 to 6 weeks by end of the year, waht let you think you can order an than wait 6 month... really funny.
As an engeneer let me say some speculations about upgrates.
1. They can make a new sesnor for the 5000 Reds and the further ones.
In that case tey only have to change little on the boardside.
That reds would be have less noise and better optical featutres but def no higher resolution or framerates Wifi and so on
2 the can use the new Epic sensor just reding out 4K.
From all I know Epic senso has more active area, so the use of Epic sensor will be around 95% of the old sensor.
3 If somebody want to have an EPIC he has to pay for, and if you have a Red already you will get the full 17500 back to buy the Epic.
In resume. Stopp dreaming to trick out the people . The red company maybe freaks but they run a buisness and not a charity.

 

[Jason Diamond]

just to be clear i was only paraphrasing what i had read and it seems others had the same idea.
i'm perfectly happy with the Redone as it is with the updates coming in Build Release form and whatnot but if RED is going to offer a better sensor then i think it would be foolish to not consider or just get the new one because RED is a new company growing and learning from its experiences and mistakes so it would seem the future products should be better than the old or they are doing something wrong.
If the sensor in the Redone were upgraded to the same X sensor as the Epic it still wouldn't be an Epic due to other internal differences but the Redone could at least benefit from any load/dump - dynamic range, etc... upgrades that the new X sensor would have.
not polluting the product line or cannibalizing the customer base for each of the product lines.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Agreed. I can see how it could easily be interpreted either way.


Don't you know that all you have to do is ask your question to get all of the answers you desire? :turned:

I asked at NAB too and one thing that was hinted at was that RED ONE isn't truly as modular and as easy to upgrade as they would have liked. EPIC is truly modular with boards that are easy to swap out.

Since RED's intention has always been to make the cameras upgradable I think it does make sense to keep the chip the major differentiation between a "Hollywood" class like EPIC and an "Indie" class camera like RED.

Due to the apparent upgrade difficulty, economies of scale, streamlined support and a host of other issues most good business people will see I think RED should be upgraded to an EPIC body style and should sell for a higher price. The Hollywood sensor should be a $15k premium to RED.

Can you imagine the manpower it will take to physically receive, track, upgrade and send out each RED? It may well be cheaper and faster to produce new RED TWO's in EPIC body style format and charge the customers $7k for the upgrade. Effectively end of life RED ONE and have a much less confusing support system for the cameras going forward.

Will that dent EPIC sales? Maybe a little, but 4K delivery looms on the horizon. But it should reduce costs in supporting RED ONE. Two ways to make money: reduce costs and increase sales.

Something worth putting a pencil to anyway.

 

[Häakon]

If the upgrade price is too much, there's no incentive to upgrade. In other words, if you have the budget for a $40,000 camera, you're probably going to buy the top of the line EPIC and not spend the difference on a crippled lesser model. If the upgrade for the RED ONE is very reasonable and competitively priced, however, there are some very compelling reasons for current owners to do so. It needs to be reiterated that we do not know what the upgraded sensor will offer the RED ONE - 4K or 5K, and what other improvements will come along with it. I don't think one can realistically discuss the value of upgrading when we have no idea yet what that entails.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I don't think one can realistically discuss the value of upgrading when we have no idea yet what that entails.

I was told RED would be 4k. It's not going to be a 5K sensor unless something changes based on what I heard. I'm not guessing as to how a user will value the upgrade option.

I'm saying that I believe from RED's perspective they would probably streamline their operation by ending RED's life and giving RED TWO an EPIC style body, sensor, processor and modularity at 4k. Maybe I'm totally wrong.

 

[Häakon]

Hm, that's an interesting idea. All we've heard about thus far is a sensor swap, but you're right - that's probably going to be quite a hassle. They replaced the first 100 bodies entirely as well instead of just retrofitting them with new mounts. I think the real point though was that I doubt even RED knows how they are going to handle such an upgrade at this time... if EPIC is still 9 months away, there are bound to be a million changes/discoveries before then which will impact both cameras.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I think the real point though was that I doubt even RED knows how they are going to handle such an upgrade at this time...

Probably true. There's an old business axiom that holds that it's cheaper and more efficient in the long run to tear down and build a new steel mill from scratch than to fix and existing one.

Now mix in the release of Scarlet and all the attention that's going to take. I'm not sure I'd be rebuilding a bunch of RED's during that. And imagine the frustration of RED owners that couldn't get an upgrade if Scarlet has better dynamic range. Just stuff to consider.

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

I'm saying that I believe from RED's perspective they would probably streamline their operation by ending RED's life and giving RED TWO an EPIC style body, sensor, processor and modularity at 4k. Maybe I'm totally wrong.

This would make a lot of sense!
Actually the cameras design dosn't have a lot of family feeling.

 

[Michele Gavazzeni]

Yeah, I can't imagine why the RED ONE with the upgrades would cost the same as the camera without it. If that was so, the Epic wouldn't exist.

Based on the current policies, you could delay accepting your camera until the upgrade is ready, then pay for the camera and the upgrade and then take delivery.

For what is known the MysteriumX sensor is going to be enbedded in all the RED cameras (Scarlett One Epic) as soon as it will be available.

Since the MysteriumX sensor (3K version) is also embedded in Scarlett there is no reason why the introduction of this new sensor should make the camera more expensive.


There is no upgrade for One to Epic hardware. The One can be traded in at its full price for an Epic camera.
The Epic hardware can't fit inside the One body.

Maybe only the new X sensor can be upgraded in the One body but not the other stuff.

If thay could fit the differents parts designed for Epic inside a One body thay would have done it without designing the actual Epic body.

And imagine the frustration of RED owners that couldn't get an upgrade if Scarlet has better dynamic range.

This happens everyday in every maket. Products evolve when you buy a product as soon as it's released, you are one of the firs to have it but usually you don't have the best product of its line.

 

[BradWright]

Based on the numbers, 5K is a marginal resolution improvement over 4k. 4K is not by any stretch of the imagination a bad thing. If the Genesis and the Viper are 1080p and audiences are not getting Blair Witch Headaches from watching 1080p, there's nothing to worry about with 4k.

The big problem digital camera makers face is that you can't keep boosting the pixel count and get linear image quality improvements. Each Pixel translates into into less noticable improvements the higher you go. Given that you are paying the same amount in processing and storage per pixel, smaller pixel counts are a better return on your money.

 

[Jason Diamond]

First of all the sensor swap would be for a redesigned 4K Red One improved sensor i would imagine based on the developments for the Epic X 5K sensor. i dont think anyone ever suggested that the RedOne would integrate with any Epic HW or anything like that simply Sensor Swap.

The RedOne is an effective 3.2k camera after OLPF and other things so the Epic will be an actual 4k effective camera after the above processes.
But at a certain point its a break even point with resolution since everyone is not filming out for every RED project even though you could with any of the eventual 3 cameras no problem. Any delivery below a 4K filmout benefits from oversampling regardless of the sensor in either of the 3 cams.

my 2donuts