'Old Fashioned' Film Making

[alexwhitmer]

Is linear storytelling dead, or at the very least to be avoided when possible?

Along with this angst to have a 'twist ending', I'm finding also a hunger for new ways to 'artistically develop' story arrangements, from non-linear to chapters to moving backwards, end to beginning. Those as well as other ideas and concepts.

To help accomplish this, it appears that editing has really moved into the high arts, with some stunning results (and some not so stunning). I'm wondering how much of this avoidance of Old Fashioned film making needs to be in the writing, and how much actually manifests in production and post.

While I always and fully embrace the creative pursuits, I also caution that any given film can become convoluted and hard to follow, or become an art film with a small audience a short shelf life. Straying from the tried and true isn't just a 'Hey, man. I'm an artist' film style choice. It must be well planned and executed, and must also fit the given story. There needs to be a reason a film is arranged in one particular order or another that benefits the story.

I'm curious how wired the human brain is for linear story telling, if at all.

a

 

[Elsie N]

Is linear storytelling dead, or at the very least to be avoided when possible?

Along with this angst to have a 'twist ending', I'm finding also a hunger for new ways to 'artistically develop' story arrangements, from non-linear to chapters to moving backwards, end to beginning. Those as well as other ideas and concepts.

To help accomplish this, it appears that editing has really moved into the high arts, with some stunning results (and some not so stunning). I'm wondering how much of this avoidance of Old Fashioned film making needs to be in the writing, and how much actually manifests in production and post.

While I always and fully embrace the creative pursuits, I also caution that any given film can become convoluted and hard to follow, or become an art film with a small audience a short shelf life. Straying from the tried and true isn't just a 'Hey, man. I'm an artist' film style choice. It must be well planned and executed, and must also fit the given story. There needs to be a reason a film is arranged in one particular order or another that benefits the story.

I'm curious how wired the human brain is for linear story telling, if at all.

a

I believe within your last question is where the answer to all your other concerns lie. It has been proven that the brain is in fact plastic, and under the right circumstances can be rewired.

But civilization has become so "busy" with attention grabbers, people as a whole don't spend much time alone with their own thoughts it seems. I recognize this and yet, I suffer the same changes in my own life as the majority do. Yet, I do still prefer the linear, and even logical progression of a story.

In summation, I wonder if it may be generational changes that will in the end make that kind of storytelling too time restrictive to hold a movie goer's attention. But maybe it all boils down to subject matter. If the story is interesting to an audience, maybe they won't be squirming in their seats.

I also wonder if reading books don't help keep a person more attuned to and on the linear story path?

 

[christopher witzke]

have you seen this?

 

[Elsie N]

Great charts. I think this is why it may take a mind that is uncluttered with everyday complexities to be able to spend the amount of immersion it takes to even follow a story in many of the movies being made today. Simple stories may have to be emotionally gripping in order to compete.

 

[David Battistella]

I think a script has to be a good read, even if that means it does not represent the structure of the finished film. I struggle with this all the time because I write as a writer, I read as a film maker and editor.

Scripts need to be good scripts, but films need to be good films.

An visual imagination takes it from the page to the screen and that is where the "magic" is.

In terms of narrative structure we can look to novels, but visual storytelling will always be putting some kind of "other" demand on the human brain because it is not words on a page.

A film script is a basic tool that requires the collective interprative imagination of many, starting with production design, character, visual interpretation through cinematography, music, pacing in editing,etc. I think this is why many novels are addapted because the novel contains the visual detail that a film script sometimes lacks. This is why a best orginal screenplay is the best film writing around, because it uses the limited for of the screenplay to tell a complete "novel style" description and narrative.

Man. I could go on and on about this....

David

 

[David Rasberry]

I watched "21 grams" late last night. An emotionally intense compelling drama that is about as non-linear in its structure as one can get and still maintain some semblance of coherent story. I think the non-linear structure made the emotional impact much more intense in this film. Difficult in the extreme to pull off successfully IMO, but well suited to this particular drama. Though I can't think of one off the top of my head, there are examples of similar story structures in literature too. For something like this to work, the intent has to be there up front and written into the script. It doesn't just happen in the edit suite after the fact.

 

[Emyr R. E. Pugh]

The chart for Primer is very accurate...

 

[alexwhitmer]

I wonder if it may be generational changes that will in the end make that kind of storytelling too time restrictive to hold a movie goer's attention

Interesting point.

With the advent of video games, and a constant drive to make them more and more intense, more violent, and more challenging, the Xbox generation is on a perpetual stimulus high - not to mention a sugar high. That's bound to carry over into viewing films, and may explain why 'Kick Ass' and 'Transformers' are so popular. I don't see much 'story' in these game either. It's win or lose, and rack up the points.

Got to be honest, even the young film makers I work with (the 18 to 22 crowd) talk in non-linear circles when discussing story, and I'm usually lost in the first 10 minutes.

On the other end of the spectrum we have the baby-boomers, with many countries experiencing an aging population. These are two very distinct audiences.

a

 

[alexwhitmer]

Very cool chart. Wonder how much was planned, and how much after the fact. I used a chart once on a first draft, and made changes per the info I saw. Interesting tool.

a

 

[J. P. Sendall]

I think myth or storytelling structures cross cultural boundaries which indicates a hard wiring in the brain. It may have something to do with the perception of a self and how it relates to time.

For example I live in a world in which my perception is limited but it seems ordinary, then there are clues as to something that is wrong with this world. I have fear as to what it may be and don't really want to change it because the known means security. But eventually I am forced or coerced into investigating it. I then discover the world is not really how I think it to be and so I find myself in conflict. I try to resolve the conflict with things I already know but find that the old ways are inadequate. I have to learn new things and learn from new people or situations. I then resolve this new world view or I don't. End of story.

This is true of character or action in any cultural myth or story. It is fundamentally true for every human being there is. It is the universal story of human consciousness moving through time and by nature is linear. There is possibly one exception but that's not another story but a state of mind.

 

[J. P. Sendall]

To add I don't think the new non-linear paradigm's of story telling will last unless the physicality of the human brain changes, which I guess is possible. But that said films like Transformers are still linear. It's a matter of training. All the young minds can appreciate linear, even slow stories. It might be just a matter of what they are used to. Also I think a general decline in reading books as a lack of training adds to the problem.

 

[David Rasberry]

Interesting point.

With the advent of video games, and a constant drive to make them more and more intense, more violent, and more challenging, the Xbox generation is on a perpetual stimulus high - not to mention a sugar high. That's bound to carry over into viewing films, and may explain why 'Kick Ass' and 'Transformers' are so popular. I don't see much 'story' in these game either. It's win or lose, and rack up the points.

Got to be honest, even the young film makers I work with (the 18 to 22 crowd) talk in non-linear circles when discussing story, and I'm usually lost in the first 10 minutes.

On the other end of the spectrum we have the baby-boomers, with many countries experiencing an aging population. These are two very distinct audiences.

a

When it comes to story telling skills, a lot of those 18-22 year olds are functionally illiterate.

 

[Elsie N]

I think myth or storytelling structures cross cultural boundaries which indicates a hard wiring in the brain.

The recent revelation of the discovery of Australopithecus sediba, the roughly 2 million year old link between apes and man does suggest there is a "hardwire" that runs through us. But there is also the belief that epigenetics -- that is, externally influenced changes to our DNA that can be passed on to at least the next generation before reverting when not reinforced -- is behaviour driven or learned. And of course, it is rapidly becoming possible to insert new code into DNA sequences.

For example I live in a world in which my perception is limited but it seems ordinary, then there are clues as to something that is wrong with this world. I have fear as to what it may be and don't really want to change it because the known means security. But eventually I am forced or coerced into investigating it. I then discover the world is not really how I think it to be and so I find myself in conflict. I try to resolve the conflict with things I already know but find that the old ways are inadequate. I have to learn new things and learn from new people or situations. I then resolve this new world view or I don't. End of story.

I suffer from constant self-evaluation as well. I feel your:emote_happyhappy: in discovery and sometimes, your :banghead:

 

[christopher witzke]

For me a story that's all mixed up in timeline is entertaining to watch... but after I've seen it, it becomes unraveled in my brain and linear.

Also... I'm a sucker for a win/win scenario. Like Lars and the real girl. But also love sunrises like Herd Candy. Notice both of these films are sans special effects and can be done quickly and with little budget.... but the story and acting are king.

 

[alexwhitmer]

When it comes to story telling skills, a lot of those 18-22 year olds are functionally illiterate.

Have to agree. Even the off-topic emails are a struggle to unravel. They just can't hold a thought and carry it through.

Not all, mind you. I wonder if text-ese is having some adverse effect on their ability to form sentences. :rolleyes5:

a

 

[alexwhitmer]

For me a story that's all mixed up in timeline is entertaining to watch... but after I've seen it, it becomes unraveled in my brain and linear.

Pulp Fiction comes to mind. I can't imagine that film done any other way.

a

 

[Andrew Rieger]

The Primer Chart is by far the best, it pretty much explains the film. The 12 Angry Men chart is great as well.

 

[Sam Taylor]

For me a story that's all mixed up in timeline is entertaining to watch... but after I've seen it, it becomes unraveled in my brain and linear.

Also... I'm a sucker for a win/win scenario. Like Lars and the real girl. But also love sunrises like Herd Candy. Notice both of these films are sans special effects and can be done quickly and with little budget.... but the story and acting are king.

I really agree with all your points! Especially that our brain unravels it to a linear time, which makes sense, in terms of cause and effect. That is what we are doing in the movie theatre while watching a modern movie with 5 cuts a second! Just puzzling out what is really happening! Also appreciating a good story and good acting. With out that we are bored, and just waiting for the film to finish, however innovative, or counter-intuitive the passage or time in the film is.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

What I can't stand now are TV episodes that start at the end and then flash back.

This always tells me one thing: This episode is going to be long and boring so they had to give me something at the beginning from the end to keep me from falling asleep.

Occasionally this doesn't feel like an afterthought to punch up weak material... but only rarely. Most non-linear story telling imo is just an effort to cover up a weak story and distract the audience from putting together the pieces and realize the movie/episode sucks without a gimmick. That's how I felt about Donnie Darko. Once I unraveled the story and all the little sub-plots and read the director's commentary I realized there was nothing to get and it was just stupid. But if the audience member doesn't go through the effort to really try and figure out what they just saw it can pass for being "deep" and "meaningful".

 

[Elsie N]

There's one series I have to defend here for sorta doing this, but over a number of episodes. It became the hook that made me mentally mark down the time 7:00 P.M. Central Time, Wednesdays on Fox... "Human Target."
When done over a number of episodes this serves to gradually turn an action character into a humanized person. I think this is different to what you are referring to, though, since the show is in the present and is simply looking backwards.

What I can't stand now are TV episodes that start at the end and then flash back.

This always tells me one thing: This episode is going to be long and boring so they had to give me something at the beginning from the end to keep me from falling asleep.

Occasionally this doesn't feel like an afterthought to punch up weak material... but only rarely. Most non-linear story telling imo is just an effort to cover up a weak story and distract the audience from putting together the pieces and realize the movie/episode sucks without a gimmick. That's how I felt about Donnie Darko. Once I unraveled the story and all the little sub-plots and read the director's commentary I realized there was nothing to get and it was just stupid. But if the audience member doesn't go through the effort to really try and figure out what they just saw it can pass for being "deep" and "meaningful".