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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

'Old Fashioned' Film Making

J. P. Sendall said:
Wesley! You didn't READ my post. I said apart from just imparting information. You really must read more :rolleyes:

And why would he want to operate a computer in the middle of the Aussie bush? He already knows where all the five year water frogs are buried.
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There are plenty of reasons he might feel the desire to use a computer. New games, easy access to the outside world, anything he might want to use it for.

There are plenty of reasons to have a computer, what he would want to do with it is up to him.

Us assuming that an aborigine would have absolutely no use for a computer, is the same as 50 years ago when they asked, "Why would anyone ever need a computer in their home?"

Or more importantly, why would anyone NEED an affordable professional level camera in their home?
 
Why does everyone automatically assume that the latest generation is "stupid"? You'd think that if the latest generation is able to keep up with all of these non-linear stories, that you're having trouble with, than that obviously doesn't mean they are all that "stupid".
Regardless, literacy rates are at some of the highest they have ever been, test scores are fantastic, and film literacy is higher than ever.
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I used the term functionally illiterate, not stupid. I meet an awful lot of very smart kids who have not been well served by their education. Yes they can read, they have good test scores for what they have been taught. Problem is they haven't been exposed to much history, culture, art, music, literature, science, philosophy, or taught important critical thinking skills. True literacy is much more than just being able to read and write at some minimally acceptable level good enough to pass a multiple choice test.
 
Kids today I would say are just as literate on a wide variety of subject as previous generations kids were. Kids generally AREN'T well versed in this stuff.

The only difference is now, thanks to technology, and their versatility with it, they have encyclopedias at their fingertips.
 
What I find lacking in a lot of young people is the ability to think and to think critically without prejudice. I have a couple of lovely twin nieces who were indoctrinated into a particular way of religious thinking that I found objectionable. When they were about twelve or thirteen they boldly declared that people who did not believe in God were naturally going to fall into bad ways. I simply told them I knew personally of some very kind people who did not believe in god at all and how did they explain that? I wasn't really wanting them to answer, I just wanted them to think. Watching their expression was a joy. Puzzlement, pure puzzlement but I knew that second I had them doubting was enough. I would like more films just to do that, open some doors to really different ways of thinking. Children are definitely not given that chance much at school but creative people within our community can supply that opportunity, mass appeal or not, non-linear or not.
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Breaking habitual patterns of culture and thought has historically been an important role of the fine arts, literature, theater and film especially.
G. B Shaw commenting on the writings of Mark Twain said something like " We both have to express ourselves in such a way as to make people laugh who would otherwise hang us"

I got button holed by a Limbaugh wing nut once who was loudly praising Ronald Reagan for being fiscally conservative, cutting taxes and creating prosperity. I pointed out Reagan bought prosperity by quadrupling the national debt, and while he cut marginal income tax rates for the extremely wealthy by 50%, he raised income tax rates for those in his middle class income bracket by 50%. Got that same blink, pause, silence, look of puzzlement.
 
Wesley Scoggins said:
Ok, there are a few things that i've just got to disagree with this thread...

Why does everyone automatically assume that the latest generation is "stupid"? You'd think that if the latest generation is able to keep up with all of these non-linear stories, that you're having trouble with, than that obviously doesn't mean they are all that "stupid".

Regardless, literacy rates are at some of the highest they have ever been, test scores are fantastic, and film literacy is higher than ever.

Never before have people been as film literate, on a mass scale, as they are now. Thanks to Netflix, and movies on YouTube, and being able to call up IMDB on your cellphone, I can sit down and have conversations about films that would have been functionally impossible just ten years ago.

People are not only watching more movies, but they are understanding more about how films are actually made (thanks to behind-the-scenes features, and director commentary), it's as if the entire population has gone through an entry-level class to film school.

I think because we understand the conventions of film, people definitely want something more stimulating and diverse, and it DOESN'T have to do with games (at least not alone), the increase in plot complexity and number of storylines happened in TV long before it happened in games. Games by contrast are still largely linear, and rather than being all about constant stimulation, it's about going on a journey, and rather than INSTANT GRATIFICATION (the BIG buzzword that everyone talks about in regards to videogames) it's about POSTPONED Gratification.

On the average Final Fantasy game, you spend HOURS level grinding before you move the storyahead just a little, the game at it's core is all about planning for things that are going to happen a dozen hours into the game. It's not about constant stimulation and instant gratification at all, and FF is one of the most popular series in the world.

Video games are highly stimulating, and regardless of the few "Michael Bay-ish" video games that are all about constant action, MOST games are highly mentally stimulating, and full of fantastic art, interesting stories, and are just fun. The most popular games in the world are mental puzzle games on cellphones, not hyper-violent shooters. (Which in of themselves have nothing wrong with them).

Regardless, why are more simplistic and straight-forward storylines necessarily better? People want more intellectually stimulating entertainment, so how far do you REALLY plan on going back?

I mean are we going to go back all the way to the Black Maria? That's about as linear as you can get, man comes in, makes dog jump through hoop, leaves. About the most simplistic beginning, middle, and end you can get.

Older is not necessarily better, and newer is far less worse than people make it out to be, in fact i'd argue it's usually better, It's why we move forward to begin with. Films have got more complex, because it's what people have wanted, and NOT just the ADD-addled Ritalin junkies that you think all people under 22 are. Your under 18 year old's aren't the ones watching all the Police Procedurals.

In short, films aren't getting worse, linear isn't always better, people under 22 haven't had a collective IQ drop, video games aren't a bad thing, and if anything the world and storytelling in general are getting better, it's just not always in the places you expect, or at least not always obvious.
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:attention9ha:

this will be an unpopular statement but why does everyone hate transformers... ??

IT's transformers! is it really a big surprise there was little to no plot ?

Did you watch the cartoon ? shootem up bang bang ... no plot at all

ok so why cant movies just be fun and exciting and visually entertaining ..

I loved shutter island as well but the diversity makes the movies fun

just like people and life !!
 
This thread is sailing into dangerous political waters.
 
Andrew Rieger said:
This thread is sailing into dangerous political waters.
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I hope not and even though film has a political side I see it more as having a psychological/social frame.

Wesley Scoggins said:
There are plenty of reasons he might feel the desire to use a computer. New games, easy access to the outside world, anything he might want to use it for.

There are plenty of reasons to have a computer, what he would want to do with it is up to him.

Us assuming that an aborigine would have absolutely no use for a computer, is the same as 50 years ago when they asked, "Why would anyone ever need a computer in their home?"

Or more importantly, why would anyone NEED an affordable professional level camera in their home?
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Actually that would be quite interesting to see what he does with a camera but I doubt we could teach him anything about living, about being and about his own mind. My point being that a tribal aboriginal with years experience in the bush knows more about life than I could teach him, technology aside. And anyway, the technology is only a means to an end.

The most interesting example of technology influencing a culture positively is the Kerala fishermen in India. They used to go out, catch a haul and then choose which port to sell at. Sometimes other boats had already pulled in so the price was low. Some ports had very few boats so the price was high. One smart captain decided to spend a whole months wages on a mobile phone and then after the catch would phone to see which port had the least amount of boats selling fish. As soon as this caught on the whole Kerala coast began to have an even distribution of fish every day. The captain didn't need to be taught, he already knew what was needed.

I would like to see what happens to all the Scarlet's going out to places where technology like this hasn't been used much but I guess it won't be (culturally) much different than supplying a SD camera.
 
Not that I think the Oscars or the Golden Globes are the very last word on recognizing film for all its varied merits, but for argument's sake, can anyone name a non-linear film that took best picture?


The Curious Case of Benjamin Button - nominated for both in '08 (I have not seen it, but was 'told' it's non-linear)
Babel comes to mind - won GG, nominated for Oscar in '06.
Pan's Labyrinth - nominated GG in '06
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind - nominated GG '05
Amores perros - nominated in '00
Pulp Fiction - nominated for both in '94
Natural Born Killers - nominated in '94
Fried Green Tomatoes - nominated back in '91
Annie Hall - won Oscar in '77



Not finding many at all. Nominations are plenty, but wins only a precious few. That's not a judgment call, mind you. Just a curiosity. According to Wiki, it goes all the way back to 1916. Dang near a hundred years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_narrative


a
 
What about Crash 2006 Academy Awards...?

Won
Best Picture
Best Editing
Best Original Screenplay
 
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Another good one! Loved that film.

Which is a good segue into following up on the '18-22' comment I made way back at the beginning of the thread.

Would they watch English Patient and like it - or get it?


My issue is a fewfold (my word).


Cyberspace is now the place to hang out. The place to meet. The place to find entertainment. So much of this entertainment is coming in short, viral videos on YouTube - which just turned 5. They run their course, and then fall into oblivion as fast as they came (Pants on the ground).


Add to this the oodles of anonymity Cyberspace gives us. Add to that the limited life experience and a poor command of English (by this I refer to those who speak English as their first language), and add to that the extreme violence of so many popular video games - mostly with the boys - and it's puke-speak language range.


What are we left with? Or, what have we gained as a society, and how does it, or will it, effect what filmmakers produce?


Whenever I am creating a 'dumb kid' character, I go to YouTube' and surf comments. When I see one that is particularly poor in attitude and language skills, I go to its author's page, and 8 times out of 10 I can predict what I'll fine there: war games, the most current viral videos, really angry music, and lots of 'F you', 'F them', 'F you for stopping by' comments. The worst comments are about child or 'older' singers / entertainers. I find it hard to believe folks can say those kinds of things to children (yes, TO them, since the children do look at the comments and the number of views) - once again anonymity makes so much puke-speak possible, and I get a sense these guys think themselves Gods of YouTube, and the next big Shock Jock sensation. Yeah, sure.

My fave, though, was a comment about Susan Boyle writing her biography - 'She 47 and lived her whole life with her mother. What stories could she possibly have?'

Well, if you have to ask.


And what the hell is this ...

Good going! I wud lyk 2 congratul8 u fr standing strong in da competition.. Ryt now, I wud very much lyk 2 see u in da finals!


As the 'dumb kid' research continues, I can sometimes find Facebook pages for some of these YouTube Gods, and sure enough - if the photos are to be believed - they are almost always tween to early 20s.


Okay, so again, where does this leave us as filmmakers? Watch any old 'Night Gallery' or 'Twilight Zone' - the pulp TV of the times - and listen to how eloquent the English is. So much of that is lost now. Is that okay? Is a big vocabulary really needed anymore? Is 'Words are power' no longer true?


I'm not saying ALL 18-22 folks are dumb. Of course not. There is plenty of that to go around to all age groups. But these are the 'newly independent from mom and dad' types with money to spend and hungry for entertainment. Is this going to - or has it already - changed what we should be looking at in terms of making film? Should I even give a rat? Am I just seeing the ones who want to be seen, and the rest are quietly clicking along out of the cyber limelight? I'm sure the answer is yes, but again, I do work with this age group, and sometimes my head is spinning trying to follow their train of thought, or read their abominable English. A large number, not all.

Figure an 18 year old has spent 5 years on YouTube - though maybe only the last few has it really imbedded itself in our daily lives (no pun) - and probably spent even more years on video games - some actually with educational intent (Library of Alexandria, for example - though I'm sure it doesn't have the sales numbers as Grand Theft Auto).


Or, should we be focusing on the world-wide, aging population? Those who tend to rent the DVD instead of going out to theaters?


So back to my original question - is Old-Fashioned film, well, old fashioned?


There is constant babble in the screenwriter forums that if you're over 25, you are out of touch with all that's new, and have zero chance as a writer - I haven't told them I grew up on B&W television, rotary phones, watched the first moon landing, and didn't even see a calculator until I was 16.

I'll tell you this - the worst command of English I see is among young writers. No vocabulary, no idea how to express an action without some long, convoluted explanation, and most if not all the characters speak in the same, monotone teen voice - which to me reveals this lack of life experience I spoke of, and brings me back to the comment on Susan Boyle. I'm guessing she has a million stories. If one wants to write and a film a character like her, and do it convincingly, you have to be all ears, and without prejudice.



a
 
alexwhitmer said:
So back to my original question - is Old-Fashioned film, well, old fashioned?


There is constant babble in the screenwriter forums that if you're over 25, you are out of touch with all that's new, and have zero chance as a writer - I haven't told them I grew up on B&W television, rotary phones, watched the first moon landing, and didn't even see a calculator until I was 16.

I'll tell you this - the worst command of English I see is among young writers. No vocabulary, no idea how to express an action without some long, convoluted explanation, and most if not all the characters speak in the same, monotone teen voice - which to me reveals this lack of life experience I spoke of, and brings me back to the comment on Susan Boyle. I'm guessing she has a million stories. If one wants to write and a film a character like her, and do it convincingly, you have to be all ears, and without prejudice.



a
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Alex, I sense frustration and even some doubt of your own relevancy. Let me offer this as a ray of hope. Watch some of the car commercials. Listen to the music. Sound familiar? Sound like something you heard a long time ago and something that you can hear the words to and understand?

This is rhetorical, but is it possible car commercials are bellwethers for movies?

Lift up your eyes... lift up your arms to the heavens... walk in the sunshine and rejoice, for there is hope.:emote_popcorn:
 
alexwhitmer said:
Not that I think the Oscars or the Golden Globes are the very last word on recognizing film for all its varied merits, but for argument's sake, can anyone name a non-linear film that took best picture?
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Slumdog Millionaire just won the best picture Oscar a year and a half ago. Regardless of what you think of the film, it's absolutely a non-linear narrative structure.

And non-linear narrative isn't a new thing at all. Godfather, Part II is another obvious example of an Oscar-winning nonlinear narrative made in a more classical style.

Frankly, as Tim Hole mentioned, there are examples of these films stretching back through the history of cinema. For example, Kubrick's first great film, The Killing, has a completely fractured chronology. It was made in 1955. Anyone here who hasn't seen it should do themselves a favor and watch it. It's amazing, one of Kubrick's best films, and relatively unknown, being unfortunately overshadowed by all of Kubrick's great later work.

Another film that immediately springs to mind is Out of the Past, directed by the great Jacques Tourneur. It's one of the great film noirs, made in 1947, and again sports a chronologically fractured structure. Again, anyone interested in noir, or simply great achronological storytelling (not to mention stunning cinematography) could do a lot worse than checking this film out.
 
Another point to be made here about what we're terming non-linear filmmaking. As I see it, there are at least two, and likely three distinct types of film that fall under this categorization. One type which has become very popular more recently is the multi-narrative film. Babel is a perfect example of this. It's less about the chronology itself being fractured or rearranged, as it is simply telling three different concurrent stories that are set in different locations, and have more or less tenuous connections to each other. There's more spatial fracturing than chronological.

The other is, obviously, where the timeline of a what is more or less one single story is fractured, and then restructured out of linear chronological order. Memento would be a straightforward example of this.

Note: A few No Country for Old Men spoilers in the next paragraph. Caveat Lector.

Perhaps a third type of narrative disruption that should be mentioned here is the elliptical narrative, where one isn't necessarily cutting back and forth between different times and stories, but rather, seemingly significant chunks of the narrative are elided, or cut out, leaving the viewer to reconstruct what happened in the gap in between. Now, obviously, almost every narrative film has ellipses like this, usually from one scene to the next, but I'm specifically referring to the elliptical structures that call attention to themselves, and are outside of convention. While examples of this are pretty common in a good many obscure art films, a great example of this in the more mainstream film would be (again, Oscar winning) No Country for Old Men. The killings of both Llewellyn and Carla Jean are carried out offscreen, and particularly in the case of the former, the effect can be extremely jarring, not only because Llewellyn has essentially been the main character up to that point, but also because his death comes from a completely different direction than expected. Which is frequently why some of these ellipses are so effective. The best ones leave out the details that are unnecessary for the story (e.g. we still know that Llewellyn died, and that the Mexican drug gang gunned him down in his motel room, but we don't see either the leadup to this confrontation or the confrontation itself, we're only thrust into the aftermath), and the shock, or momentary confusion, or simply the readjustment to a sudden new turn in the story can be a powerful emotional tool in the filmmaker's arsenal. Of course, one danger here is if one elides too much, the plot itself can be easily lost.
 
alexwhitmer said:
Sure about that? God, I pray you're right!


Case in point ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEKErVF9zHc&feature=related


Should I be worried? I mean, too funny, but ...

Is YouTube single-handedly dumbing down the entire planet? Or, is there something to be said for all this opportunity at expression?




Emote popcorn.

a
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Personal opinion? No, I don't think it's a You Tube thing. I think You Tube is just taking advantage of how we've changed.

Every decade we've had to devote less individual time to get X-amount of work done, whether working to feed ourselves and others, or being freed from the tedium of office work by computers.

You Tube has just been an outlet for people who have too much free time on their hands IMO due to this greater work efficiency. I'm curious how the Great Recession will affect the way we act and think if people have to put more thought into just getting by.

Families are changing and spending more time together so at least the backbone of society will probably stop the osteoporosis. The wild and crazy ones you alluded to earlier that you see on You Tube have always been out there, they just didn't have the technology to show the stupid things they do that will forever embarrass them when they grow out of it.:yikes: (And trust me, it will embarrass you... Lot's of times when an old acquaintance passes away and I remember something crazy I did that they were witness to, I think "whew" that's one less person that knew about THAT!)
 
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