OFFHOLLYWOOD DRAGON R3Ds & MORE

[Nick Morrison]

I've been playing with these for a bit.

To keep it simple and to focus on differences that might be considered as pros or cons depending on what side of the fence you're on:

- Fairly large resolution differences between the Dragon 6K HD format (5568x3132) and the Alexa XT 16x9 (2880x1620).
- Large difference in the field of view between the two formats.

Since the primary argument when people get down to the real differences between these two systems has always been color I made a quick comparison on color corrected images.

The good news here is that color will not be something people can criticize when comparing Epic Dragon and the Alexa XT. Also, it's important to remember how much better the OLPF IR Cut is at higher neutral densities.

OLPF reflection/glare is something that people will obviously point out as it's visible and does happen. That to me is the only thing negatively impacting the image quality on Dragon at the moment, and it's situational in nature. Right now I'll just say it's part of the camera's personality

Thank you Mark and OFFHOLLYWOOD for these test images.

Nice comparative grades Phil! Both cameras look fantastic (and hard to distinguish), but the extra resolution on the Dragon is certainly a plus, as is presumably the better lowlight performance, and of course the smaller physical size of the Dragon...so much more compact than Alexa (which of course is ideally suited for 3D and Movi's, etc).

 

[Harcharan Singh]

Hi,

Is the OLPF glare visible at 6K only or at at lower resolutions also....

Thanks

Harcharan

 

[Rohan B]

so does the dragon has a similar dynamic range to alexa and not more that that?? alexa was rated 14 stops by those people who rated red epic 13 stops, that means the alexa has about one stop more dynamic range than the epic, dragon is supposed to have 16 stops, 3 more stops than epic and 2 stops more than alexa and more than film actualy according to jim.. how can it be similar to alexa???? then does the red dragon has 14 stops of dr?? just one stop more that the epic mx???

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

so does the dragon has a similar dynamic range to alexa and not more that that?? alexa was rated 14 stops by those people who rated red epic 13 stops, that means the alexa has about one stop more dynamic range than the epic, dragon is supposed to have 16 stops, 3 more stops than epic and 2 stops more than alexa and more than film actualy according to jim.. how can it be similar to alexa???? then does the red dragon has 14 stops of dr?? just one stop more that the epic mx???

No Dragon has more than that - but getting a pleasing grade is not always about using the whole range of a file.

 

[Niko Pueringer]

Niko, have you played with the files yourself?

Not yet, I have to wait until I'm back at my work rig next week to do so. At this moment I have to look at what other people are posting, and what I see in Sanjin's pictures looks noisy for 800 ISO, hence my question if anyone could explain why.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

For any Alexa = Dragon comparison test

a film look image evaluation should match ISO alignment

by ratio 1:2 or even better at maximum ratio 1:2.5



What does it mean?

It means for indoor shots especially when Alexa has set @ ISO 800,

Dragon should be set in a range between ISO 1600 and ISO 2000.



Below is an absolute matching @ 2K that is now ready for more precise colour grade later.

Alexa original 2K size and Dragon @ ISO 2000, de-noised, softened, de-saturated (-20%), cropped and resized in 2K.

A film look applied: Dragon R3D, ISO 2000, K 3200, Aperture T/8, PS6 Color Effex, Kodak Elite Chrome 200, Dragon, de-noised, softened, de-saturated (-20%), cropped and resized in 2K

A film look applied: Alexa RAW, ISO 800, K 3200, Aperture T/8, PS6 Color Effex, Kodak Elite Chrome 200

Right-clicking opens an original size image in a new tab!!!

Comparison by dynamic range between Alexa and Dragon should show that Dragon has one more stops of DR in shadows

and also one more stop of DR in highlights.

You can see these additional DR stops clearly at nicer highlights roll off in the face of a guy

and with more detail in the background at the shadow with the lamp.

That means if Alexa claims 14 stops of DR than Dragon should claim about 16 stops of DR.

I think that Jim was totally right when he was writing about Dragon's 16 stops of DR here at the forum a couple months ago.

So with this small and simple test between Alexa and Dragon,

Dragon showed that is a leader in digital cinema camera market today.

Dragon can easily simulate and evaluate any of Alexa shot with 100% mach but vice versa

Alexa can't simulate and evaluate Dragon just because of less dynamic range and lack of more spatial resolution.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Nice information Sanjin and all involved in this Thread.

I just wish Red would chime in with info about OLPF etc. etc.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Dragon 6K is definitely like a new Alexa 4K that Arri is still not able to deliver!!!!

Even better!!!!

And with Dragon you'll get more flexibility on set, easy to frame your shots, shoot up to 300 fps @ 2K,

have a smaller and lighter body, much bigger head-room in post production,

affordable sensor upgrade option from Epic and much lower price tag!!!!!

What else ???!!!!

Red should start a brand new advertising campaign something like this:

No need for Alexa!!!

Anymore, anytime, anywhere!

Also I think that Germans find themselves lost in a blind street of 2K

and RED is with Dragon finally on the road to digital cinema camera Eldorado!!!!

It's a really time to get Dragon!!!


And of course all that after new Dragon Colour release and Dragon's OLPF fix soon

I think it's a real thing!!!

 

[Phil Holland]

Dragon 6K is definitely like a new Alexa 4K that Arri is still not able to deliver!!!!

Even better!!!!

And with Dragon you'll get more flexibility on set, easy to frame your shots, shoot up to 300 fps @ 2K,

have a smaller and lighter body, much bigger head-room in post production,

affordable sensor upgrade option from Epic and much lower price tag!!!!!

What else ???!!!!

Red should start a brand new advertising campaign something like this:

No need for Alexa!!!

Anymore, anytime, anywhere!

Also I think that Germans find themselves lost in a blind street of 2K

and RED is with Dragon finally on the road to digital cinema camera Eldorado!!!!

It's a really time to get Dragon!!!


And of course all that after new Dragon Colour release and Dragon's OLPF fix soon

I think it's a real thing!!!

Heh. I don't know if I fully agree with your "how Red should advertise Dragon" Sanjin.

Much of what is needed is said here:
http://www.red.com/products/epic-dragon#features

I do think that a special note on the specific look of the highlight roll-off being for more organic than on Mysterium-X would be nice somewhere.

In reality Epic Dragon is the highest quality digital cinema camera on the market at the moment. That's the sum of all improvements and it's feature set. There's nothing else out there that does what this camera can do. It's plain and simple. If you're shooting at 6K or even really 5.5K you have a motion picture camera shooting higher quality stills than most modern day DSLRs.

Remember. Arri's original plan was to release Alexa 4K 1 year after Alexa landed. It's a camera they have been developing for some time now. However, hand over fist they made a lot of dough selling those OG Alexa bodies. In fact, so much so they released many versions of essentially the same thing

For those who own an Epic with Mysterium-X this upgrade is pretty much a no-brainer. $10K for the best out there ain't too shabby. Even new, the Epic Dragon is going to be less expensive than much of the competition. Even the Carbon Dragon is in some cases.

 

[Matthew Glover]

whats the dealio with the new dragon color science? What are we expecting at the moment? Are we expecting a major change in color or whats up? Iv only heard little things.

 

[Bob Gundu]

whats the dealio with the new dragon color science? What are we expecting at the moment? Are we expecting a major change in color or whats up? Iv only heard little things.

Nothing official.

 

[Eric Haase]

Resizing and balancing the both image.

Alexa T2.8 no clipping (LogC)

Dragon T4 no clipping (RedLogFilm)

Is the red halation near the bright side of his face the OLPF flare? It's pretty awful. I hope this gets rectified. Are people seeing reddish OLPF flares around hot windows in day interior shots too?

 

[Jarred Land]

whats the dealio with the new dragon color science? What are we expecting at the moment? Are we expecting a major change in color or whats up? Iv only heard little things.

Dragon Color is still in development.. There is another half of that that we can't tell you about yet

Graeme has done a great job of squeezing Dragon support into RC2 with better color than we have ever had for everyone to work with until the time comes.

And yes, the OLPF flare is being resolved as we speak... Don't loose any sleep over that.

 

[Eric Haase]

Dragon Color is still in development.. There is another half of that that we can't tell you about yet

Graeme has done a great job of squeezing Dragon support into RC2 with better color than we have ever had for everyone to work with until the time comes.

And yes, the OLPF flare is being resolved as we speak... Don't loose any sleep over that.

Sounds great! Awesome to hear about the OLPF. Can't wait to get my hands on Dragon.

 

[Phil Holland]

Dragon Color is still in development.. There is another half of that that we can't tell you about yet

Graeme has done a great job of squeezing Dragon support into RC2 with better color than we have ever had for everyone to work with until the time comes.

And yes, the OLPF flare is being resolved as we speak... Don't loose any sleep over that.

Good news indeed. Thank you.

I seriously can't stress enough how good (and pleasing) the overall color is out of Dragon as is. Least not forget the fact that this Hot Mirror/IRND Filter craziness is no longer a bother. It's that combined effect, mixed with the resolution, and the new not-so-digital fingerprint in the highlight roll-off that makes the images really sing.

Looking forward to that other "half" you're describing. I have a theory and it's a crazy one, but who really knows what's cooking in your kitchen.

 

[Diego Querzoli]

AMAZING.
Personally I cant wait for my CF to arrive...

For all I have seeing, from Mark, Phill, Sanjic and others that have being posting their tests, the Dragon sensor is the Climax of the history of Digital Cinema so far.
Now with the concrete notion that resolution play a big part in it, with display and camera makers following the natural course of evolution, and the mass of post production getting used to a more fluid workflow, to the new editing and shooting techniques that came along with a bigger resolution ingested than the desired output, 6K turns out to be almost essential.

Smoothness of Color and tones and DR are amazing and little details like the OLPF flair kind of make happy so the same people that would love to argue with me and fellow RED shooters will have something to cling on to the discussion... soon to take the final punch !

Thanks

 

[Jarred Land]

AMAZING.
For all I have seeing, from Mark, Phill, Sanjic and others that have being posting their tests, the Dragon sensor is the Climax of the history of Digital Cinema so far.
Thanks

Good news indeed. Thank you.

Least not forget the fact that this Hot Mirror/IRND Filter craziness is no longer a bother.

Thanks guys. We are knocking things off the list one by one. The exiting part of all this is that Dragon is really just starting to spread it's wings. So much more to come....

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Thanks guys. We are knocking things off the list one by one. The exiting part of all this is that Dragon is really just starting to spread it's wings. So much more to come....

And I hear that the Dragon's wing span it's pretty fucking WIDE...

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Is the red halation near the bright side of his face the OLPF flare? It's pretty awful. I hope this gets rectified. Are people seeing reddish OLPF flares around hot windows in day interior shots too?

Yeah, now I also think that Dragon's biggest issue is OLPF flare halation at the moment.

Hope that RED is working hard to solve that soon!!!

And yes, the OLPF flare is being resolved as we speak... Don't loose any sleep over that.

Thanks Jarred!!!

Great news!!!

Anyway seems to me that Alexa doesn't have that issue at all!!!!!

See that at the following images below:

A film look applied: Dragon R3D, ISO 800, K 5600, Aperture T/2,8, PS6 Color Effex, Fuji Velvia 100,
Dragon's image de-noised, softened, cropped and resized in 2K

Right-clicking opens an original size image in a new tab!!!

A film look applied: Dragon R3D, ISO 1600, K 5600, Aperture T/2,8, PS6 Color Effex, Fuji Velvia 100,
Dragon's image de-noised, softened, cropped and resized in 2K

Right-clicking opens an original size image in a new tab!!!

A film look applied: Alexa RAW, ISO 800, K 5600, Aperture T/2.8, PS6 Color Effex, Fuji Velvia 100

Right-clicking opens an original size image in a new tab!!!

 

[Matthew Glover]

Dragon Color is still in development.. There is another half of that that we can't tell you about yet

Graeme has done a great job of squeezing Dragon support into RC2 with better color than we have ever had for everyone to work with until the time comes.

And yes, the OLPF flare is being resolved as we speak... Don't loose any sleep over that.

yesssss I cant wait!!!!!!! :drool5: