OFFHOLLYWOOD DRAGON R3Ds & MORE

[Nick Morrison]

Dragon Color is still in development.. There is another half of that that we can't tell you about yet

Graeme has done a great job of squeezing Dragon support into RC2 with better color than we have ever had for everyone to work with until the time comes.

And yes, the OLPF flare is being resolved as we speak... Don't loose any sleep over that.

Love how you guys methodically move forward...with so much confidence. This is fun to watch.

Haha.

 

[Michael Epple]

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed here, but are we all in agreement that Dragon and Alexa are the same latitude-wise? Sure we can all speculate at the gains with dragon color and dragon gamma that there would be more, but at the moment, is that where we are? I don't want to hear the resolution argument, that's obvious, but with all the breakthrough talk and hype, they are now at the DR and sensitivity of the original Alexa? It sure looks to me like ISO is still half of what it reads on a light meter, at least it's the same as my Epic X. I'm not here to bash the sensor, I own an Epic. But it sure looks like it reads as one stop gain in sensitivity and DR, not like what all the claims were. I'm still trying to make a decision on whether the upgrade is worth it for me. I'm not trolling here, or making snarky comments.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed here, but are we all in agreement that Dragon and Alexa are the same latitude-wise? Sure we can all speculate at the gains with dragon color and dragon gamma that there would be more, but at the moment, is that where we are? I don't want to hear the resolution argument, that's obvious, but with all the breakthrough talk and hype, they are now at the DR and sensitivity of the original Alexa? It sure looks to me like ISO is still half of what it reads on a light meter, at least it's the same as my Epic X. I'm not here to bash the sensor, I own an Epic. But it sure looks like it reads as one stop gain in sensitivity and DR, not like what all the claims were. I'm still trying to make a decision on whether the upgrade is worth it for me. I'm not trolling here, or making snarky comments.

I haven't looked closely at these R3D's, so I have nothing definitive to say. All the Dragon footage I've seen so far looks like a brand new camera to me, that far outclasses the current Epic. Even Toia's early footage on a Beta Dragon far exceeds Epic both in terms of lowlight, clean blacks, compression, you name it. And he's made it clear his current Dragon (ie NOT beta) already surpasses those results. So I'm trusting the video I'm seeing, and I'm not too focused on tests yet (as none have tried or wanted to be rigorously definitive).

These two clips from Toia and Peter Lloyns Colister firmly assure me that Dragon is something completely new:

TOIA (beta Dragon):

PETER LLYONS COLLISTER (beta Dragon):

I just personally find it hard to imagine the MX sensor having this type of tonality, range, low light performance, etc.

Interesting, ISO doesn't seem as relevant anymore: Toia has made it clear he actually prefers working at below 320 now!

 

[Michael Epple]

Here's an addition to my earlier post. I do believe the Dragon has a better rolloff. It's smoother, without color fringing, something that can't be stated about the X and something that the Alexa used to have over the X. I also noticed that the Alexa is still substantially cleaner, noise-wise. It does seem that the Alexa is still cleaner and sees deeper into the shadows.

 

[Michael Epple]

Tests are really the only thing to go by, in my book. Good shooters can provide nice images. Light is unique to time and location, so making improvement judgements based off of cool clips from around the world doesn't do much in that department. Chris Probst's ugly side by side test was much more beneficial in that regard than the two show pieces you posted. I'm not saying that the new sensor isn't better than the old, stats-wise. I'm talking about how much.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Good news indeed. Thank you.

I seriously can't stress enough how good (and pleasing) the overall color is out of Dragon as is. Least not forget the fact that this Hot Mirror/IRND Filter craziness is no longer a bother. It's that combined effect, mixed with the resolution, and the new not-so-digital fingerprint in the highlight roll-off that makes the images really sing.

Looking forward to that other "half" you're describing. I have a theory and it's a crazy one, but who really knows what's cooking in your kitchen.

Hey Phil! I know you and I disagree about 4K but other than that I have tremendous respect for you and I love your work. I'd love to hear more about specific color differences you have noticed and more about IR issues (which in Epic, we never quiet licked with any hassle-free filter, unlike Red One which was 100% solvable with no worries in several ways.

Are you saying that Epic just doesn't have IR issues at all, that I can slap on a 2.1 regular ND on there and sleep well at night, like I can with some Canon cameras (which otherwise mostly suck, I'm not advocating for Canon here)?

 

[Will Keir]

Oh I believe it. For both of us.

Thanks guys. We are knocking things off the list one by one. The exiting part of all this is that Dragon is really just starting to spread it's wings. So much more to come....

 

[Bob Gundu]

Thanks guys. We are knocking things off the list one by one. The exiting part of all this is that Dragon is really just starting to spread it's wings. So much more to come....

Cool stuff Jarred. Do you mean more stuff to come within the Dragon sensor, or do you mean other products from RED in general?

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed here, but are we all in agreement that Dragon and Alexa are the same latitude-wise? Sure we can all speculate at the gains with dragon color and dragon gamma that there would be more, but at the moment, is that where we are? I don't want to hear the resolution argument, that's obvious, but with all the breakthrough talk and hype, they are now at the DR and sensitivity of the original Alexa? It sure looks to me like ISO is still half of what it reads on a light meter, at least it's the same as my Epic X. I'm not here to bash the sensor, I own an Epic. But it sure looks like it reads as one stop gain in sensitivity and DR, not like what all the claims were. I'm still trying to make a decision on whether the upgrade is worth it for me. I'm not trolling here, or making snarky comments.

Trustworthy non-fanboy sources say that it is one more stop at the bottom (maybe a bit less) but two more on top (above middle-grey) which greatly helps highlights to look great and also permits rating at /pretending the camera is a lower ISO, which means less constant reaching for ND and ensuing IR issues. So 3 more total, just edging-out Alexa.

Plus…. Better color (really need to see more tech test though) AND better IR handling (regardless of ND used) but again I need to see more side by side tech tests.

I agree with you that lovely footage samples mostly only show you when the camera does work and make great shots, but this is not so relevant because any camera can look good sometimes, and what we really need to know is where it falls down, what the limits are or lack thereof. I disagree about the girl in the field shot being terribly exciting - I could easily give you that with a quick drag and drop grade on Epic footage, but Mark's cars do show an amazing lack of skew in the wheels and some interesting highlight handling at 250 ISO.

 

[Phil Holland]

Hey Phil! I know you and I disagree about 4K but other than that I have tremendous respect for you and I love your work. I'd love to hear more about specific color differences you have noticed and more about IR issues (which in Epic, we never quiet licked with any hassle-free filter, unlike Red One which was 100% solvable with no worries in several ways.

Are you saying that Epic just doesn't have IR issues at all, that I can slap on a 2.1 regular ND on there and sleep well at night, like I can with some Canon cameras (which otherwise mostly suck, I'm not advocating for Canon here)?

Cheers Robert. And thanks for that.

A new Epic Mysterium-X owner asked me this week about the IR performance and here's essentially what it's all about. I've written about it here a good amount and have show many-a-filter test, but here's a summary of what people need to know.

Mysterium-X and IR Contamination

Mysterium-X is sensitive to Infrared Light. Specifically you will notice when using Neutral Density Filtration in front of the lens that on strengths of approximately 0.9 or 1.2 and up you will see a magenta tint effect the image. This actually happens on other non-Red cameras as well, so filter manufacturers came up with interesting solutions mostly involving Hot Mirrors in front of the ND filters, a new filter called an IRND, or combination filters that use Hot Mirror/ND or Hot Mirror/IRND glass fused together to lessen the amount of filters placed in front of the lens (which also eliminates the potential for internal matte box reflections).

Here's an example of 6 stops of ND with and without IR Protection:



Where you tend to see IR Contamination the most is in black fabrics such as wool, cotton, and felt especially under warm conditions or hot lights with tungsten sources revealing the most color shift. In most cases it's something that can be handled and fixed in post, however, in extreme circumstances a good deal of color and contrast is lost which makes it a hard fix. Get it closer to right or just right in camera and you're dealing with less post color work. Interesting sidebar, under cold weather conditions you may get a different result than expected with Hot Mirror/IRNDs, however it's often an easy color temperature/tint fix.

I did many, many, many tests to see how to achieve the highest quality image out of Mysterium-X. It comes down to two schools of thought. If you want a good neutral image straight out of camera you will want to go with a Hot Mirror solution. If you don't mind color correcting/white balancing the image an IRND (usually less expensive) will do the job as it's essentially just a color tinted filter.

To illustrate this concept you can see the out of camera, white balanced, and white balanced with DRX adjustment out of the Mysterium-X sensor here:



No brand loyalty or anything here, but if you are looking for the best out of camera image you'll be looking at the Tiffen Hot Mirror/IRND Combo Filters followed very closely by the Formatt Hot Mirror/ND Filters. If you don't mind the white balancing, Schneider tends to have the most "controlled" tint among the IRNDs out there. Although the Formatt ProStops aren't too shabby at all. There is one newer Japanese brand that also looks good, but I haven't seen any around these parts and it's the only thing I haven't tested actually.


Enter the Motion Mount.

The Motion Mount does many things, but one of the features is it's color neutrality across the ND range. It has an IR Cut and an Adaptive Color Tinting per ND value that creates a very good and arguably the best out of camera image with the Mysterium-X sensor:




Enter the Dragon

The IR Contamination is both a sensor and OLPF job. Part of what Red did with Dragon was design the sensor, color science, and OLPF with this in mind to solve this IR Contamination. Based on initial tests of up to ND 2.7 (9 stops) it appears that IR Contamination is no longer an issue with Dragon:


Contrast and a bit of color shift is to be expected especially depending on the quality, material type, purity, optical mixture, and even baking time of the filters. However, the big news is standard NDs work extremely well on Dragon at deeper densities and there should be no crazy IR concerns. At least none that I've discovered while stress testing the camera so far.

It should be noted that the Motion Mount works fine with Dragon as the Adaptive Color Tinting is calibrated to the newer sensor and OLPF technology.


I think that pretty sums up where things are at with Mysterium-X and Dragon in regards to IR concerns in ND filtration.

 

[Diego Querzoli]

Thank you Phil!

Let me just say thanks for your kindness and altruism sharing all your studies!

Let me ask you about your view of the motion mount (and sorry if perhaps I am far from making sense). I see that Neutral density features it works very well... do you think its syncing features would work to get a Strobe of short duration synched with the exposure? Perhaps it will take us to the Still meet Motion that some are expecting for so long....

Any thoughts?

 

[Phil Holland]

Thank you Phil!

Let me just say thanks for your kindness and altruism sharing all your studies!

Let me ask you about your view of the motion mount (and sorry if perhaps I am far from making sense). I see that Neutral density features it works very well... do you think its syncing features would work to get a Strobe of short duration synched with the exposure? Perhaps it will take us to the Still meet Motion that some are expecting for so long....

Any thoughts?

Well in that one regard there is a strobe safe mode. There isn't a true strobe sync with the Red system. It was planned at one point, as you can see by the DSMC Side Handle, but I believe the concept was scratched long ago. However, if you roll and fire the strobe essentially like you were firing the camera that's been demonstrated to work under certain conditions. You want to do what you can to have a longer strobe duration to find the most success without the Motion Mount and you'll likely want a slower shutter speed. It does work though. A few folks here do it.

As for the Motion Mount in general, it's pretty rad. There's nothing else really like it and if you need/desire/want that Global Shutter (Square Shutter) that's how you'll truly get it. Soft Shutter is the fun one, especially with any sort of action or camera movement. If you want a slick and speedy to work with small camera, it's a good way to go.

There are a few cons. Aliasing can occur on fine details, and I hear that Red is working on a solution soon-ish. Also, lenses like the Angenieux DP series that protrude far back into the sensor box would actually break the Motion Mount, so be careful there. The usable ND range for my T2 PL glass tends to be in the 5-6 stop range wide open. However, at the full 8 stops range you will experience a diagonal out of focus image distortion and bit of color distortion as well. Tough to see when locked off, but when pulling you can see it. In the manual it states that it's a good idea to have a 1.2 ND handy when you need that wide open daytime shot to handle that, so using the ND filter and the Motion Mount at 4 stops would be ideal in that situation. I can confirm that works nicely. Another solution would be to merely stop down. One other con is that you always loose 1.6 stops with it attached. So if you are in a limited lighting or low light situation it's not always the best choice.

It's true allure comes in the form of run and gun shooting, which is essentially the major reason I purchased it. Small camera, no matte box, quick setups. Perfect for handheld work with that Square Shutter and Soft Shutter. It also keeps the weight down for things like the Movi.

The pros make it very useful. It's not a must have tool, but I know I'm shooting a huge music even this year and that Strobe Safe mode will come in mega handy. Narrative and creatively I'm really enjoying figuring out Soft Shutter and how to utilize it. It's got a lovely "dreamy" effect that's real cool. Square Shutter rocks if that's the look you're after too.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Thank you Phil. I will have to test the Schneider Platinums a little more. I have been told they fall down in hot weather. Ever tried a hot day shoot with them and some nice cheap black t shirts?

When you say expensive filter, which expensive filter? Would Dragon play as nice with moderately expensive regular NDs (i.e. Schneider/Tiffen)?

 

[Mark Toia]

the OLPF flare is being resolved as we speak... Don't loose any sleep over that.

Nice and I'm not....

Do we send our cameras back ?

 

[Mark Toia]

I haven't looked closely at these R3D's, so I have nothing definitive to say. All the Dragon footage I've seen so far looks like a brand new camera to me, that far outclasses the current Epic. Even Toia's early footage on a Beta Dragon far exceeds Epic both in terms of lowlight, clean blacks, compression, you name it. And he's made it clear his current Dragon (ie NOT beta) already surpasses those results. So I'm trusting the video I'm seeing, and I'm not too focused on tests yet (as none have tried or wanted to be rigorously definitive).

These two clips from Toia and Peter Lloyns Colister firmly assure me that Dragon is something completely new:

TOIA (beta Dragon):

PETER LLYONS COLLISTER (beta Dragon):

I just personally find it hard to imagine the MX sensor having this type of tonality, range, low light performance, etc.

Interesting, ISO doesn't seem as relevant anymore: Toia has made it clear he actually prefers working at below 320 now!

EPIC DRAGON feels or looks like it has millions more shades ... hard to explain.. when you went from standard IPAD to Retina IPAD... So much deeper tones, so many more colours.
You never need to worry about trying to fill light high contrast scenes. Thats now long gone with the DRAGON.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

EPIC DRAGON feels or looks like it has millions more shades ... hard to explain..

As good a descripton as my "fidelity" word.

This thing really grows on you

 

[Nick Morrison]

EPIC DRAGON feels or looks like it has millions more shades ... hard to explain.. when you went from standard IPAD to Retina IPAD... So much deeper tones, so many more colours.
You never need to worry about trying to fill light high contrast scenes. Thats now long gone with the DRAGON.

What ISO are you working at most of the time now? Still sub 320?

 

[paul schefz]

I'm sure I'm going to get flamed here, but are we all in agreement that Dragon and Alexa are the same latitude-wise? Sure we can all speculate at the gains with dragon color and dragon gamma that there would be more, but at the moment, is that where we are? I don't want to hear the resolution argument, that's obvious, but with all the breakthrough talk and hype, they are now at the DR and sensitivity of the original Alexa? It sure looks to me like ISO is still half of what it reads on a light meter, at least it's the same as my Epic X. I'm not here to bash the sensor, I own an Epic. But it sure looks like it reads as one stop gain in sensitivity and DR, not like what all the claims were. I'm still trying to make a decision on whether the upgrade is worth it for me. I'm not trolling here, or making snarky comments.

i know exactly how you feel....i am in the same boat...
i honestly think that things get blown out of proportion....people tend to make up their minds and that is that....red has bad skin tones and somehow that sticks...alexa is so much better and so it is....even if it is not...or that things just aren't that easy.....
funny thing is: i have played with every single raw dragon clip i can get my hands on....and yes, the files are obviously larger and i also see better roll off and better compression....but when it comes to noise, shadows and ISO i am simply not blown away...at all....yes, things will get better and there is no doubt that dragon is an improvement over epic but i don't honestly see the leaps and heaps...
even funnier: there seems to be some serious buzz building over dragon....people who have thought i was crazy for buying epic are all of a sudden coming, asking if i already have dragon because they have heard so many good things about it....of course i tell them that what i have seen is awesome and much better then epic....
i would still love to see a good side by side epic dragon comparison but somehow i don't think we will see one too soon here.....
my expectations were/are: clear improvement in noise/shadows and at least one stop ISO improvement....i am hoping that the magic color sauce will fix what i have seen up to now...
you also have a good point that we really should not have to compare an yet unfinished product to a proven years old one....the only hope is that arri will rest on the BAFTA 2014 nominations....but i doubt they will....

 

[Bob Gundu]

Like most things in life, the last 20% takes the longest and it's the hardest. It's a testament to how good the MX really is. The differences between Scarlet and Epic for example, for some showcases enough difference to warrant the upgrade. The leap from MX to Dragon to me is an achievement worthy of the upgrade, but to some may not. In the big scheme of things, any of these choices are still killer cameras. Shooting RAW, +4K, small. Remarkable really. It's funny how many are still adding grain to footage yet complain of noise in the image. I don't expect Dragon to be noise free, but from the noise I see, it's pretty nice looking. I also don't expect people to the blown away, but when you;re reminded that it's "6K" and you're shooting 98fps... whoa...

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

I really want to purchase an epic dragon this year. I have the money. I work with epic a lot. Alexa too. There is no doubt Arri is going to come out with a KICK ASS 4k camera. It's going to happen. BUT, it will be much more expensive than Dragon (i assume). And honestly, I think we will be sitting in exactly the same boat as we are now regarding Epic vs new 4k Alexa. But who cares, at this point, both will be spectacular image-wise, I can just afford to own an epic for a lot less money. That's what's cool...just thinking aloud...