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October 30th Announcement Feedback

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Lee Saxon said:
Personally I think it's crazy that you can trade your current camera for a 100% refund.

I just wonder how much cheaper all the cameras could be if 'Stage 2' and 'Stage 3' didn't exist.
Click to expand...

excellent point. in the end, what they are doing is SUPER EXPENSIVE and they are not a charity. but even better than 100% is the 50% camera value discount and KEEP YOUR CAMERA! To me, that is just incredible.

7000 x 17,500 = $122,500.000, over a tenth of a billion dollars. IN bodies only. then add

Accessories/Inventory = $??
New Camera Tools and Dies $??
Lens Division = $??
ASIC Development =$??
New Production Capacities = $??
FREE SOFTWARE development = $??
Whatever I forgot = $??

These reasons above may very well be why there are 3 stages.

THANKS RED FOR INVESTING SO MUCH IN AN UNBELIEVABLY EXCITING FUTURE IN DIGITAL CINEMA!
 
Think about it this way,

There is a $9,000 difference in your bank account between Stage 2 and 3, not factoring the bigger LCD, etc. in Stage 2.

So that means your Red body is worth $9,000. Do you want to trade in your Red body for an Epic-X body just to save $9,000? Or do you want to keep it, along with your ET breakout box, top rails, ET EVF adapter, and every other little accessory that WON'T work on the new Epic-X cameras. It's a generous deal and also GENIUS marketing by Red to even offer that.

Also, think about this, to enter into STAGE ONE, you're essentially paying a $5,700 premium to be in that club after you factor in the BombEVF/Pro IO module price difference from Stage 2.

$5,700 to be first in line, if you're knighted by Red of course. That should ROI pretty quick I imagine.

Tough decisions but so far, Stage 3 seems like the least impressive deal at the moment, after you look at the whole picture.
 
Like Tim and some others, we LOVE the fact that RED is doing this trade-in. We bought in at a "semi-safe" time and were around 2000. We waited a LONG time to get our camera and get all the pieces needed to work professionally. We did work through many issues with the earlier builds and backorders.

It's a bit of a bummer that someone who just got a camera last month may get a new Epic (using #2) before our trade-in of #3.

But again, like Tim, we don't want to sound like we're complaining too much. :-) It's still a great deal.
 
Richard Darge said:
Think about it this way,

Tough decisions but so far, Stage 3 seems like the least incentive deal at the moment.
Click to expand...

It makes the most sense financially now that I look at it from that perspective.
Stage 3 is also the least attractive for RED.

The more people do Phase 2, the less LOGISTIC nightmare.

OK Jim, Jarred, I get it now. Makes total business sense. Please disregard
my message for those struggling. :wink:

Richard- yeah, its an incredible value. and I really want to keep this part of history.

TO me, thats the priceless part. So personally, I could not be happier with the Program.
 
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Richard Darge said:
Think about it this way,

There is a $9,000 difference in your bank account between Stage 2 and 3, not factoring the bigger LCD, etc. in Stage 2.

So that means your Red body is worth $9,000. Do you want to trade in your Red body for an Epic-X body just to save $9,000? Or do you want to keep it, along with your ET breakout box, top rails, ET EVF adapter, and every other little accessory that WON'T work on the new Epic-X cameras. It's a generous deal and also GENIUS marketing by Red to even offer that.

Also, think about this, to enter into STAGE ONE, you're essentially paying a $5,700 premium to be in that club after you factor in the BombEVF/Pro IO module price difference from Stage 2.

$5,700 to be first in line, if you're knighted by Red of course. That should ROI pretty quick I imagine.

Tough decisions but so far, Stage 3 seems like the least impressive deal at the moment, after you look at the whole picture.
Click to expand...

Great Post Richard....
 
Richard Darge said:
There is a $9,000 difference in your bank account between Stage 2 and 3, not factoring the bigger LCD, etc. in Stage 2.

So that means your Red body is worth $9,000. Do you want to trade in your Red body for an Epic-X body just to save $9,000? Or do you want to keep it, along with your ET breakout box, top rails, ET EVF adapter, and every other little accessory that WON'T work on the new Epic-X cameras. It's a generous deal and also GENIUS marketing by Red to even offer that.
Click to expand...

And this leads us to Stage 2 (b): You sell your Red One privately for x$ - along with the accessoires you might no longer want. This might cover more than those $9.000, or maybe a bit less. You keep your place in line, get "rid" or more equipment, save RED and FedEx some extra work, and everybody should be very, very happy.

(Jarred, go to your wife!)
 
Thank you Tim for putting to words how some early adopters are feeling. I'm one of the people who went from #441 to parhaps #4xxx in line because I can't afford stage 2.

Do I feel bad about that? Well, things could have been even better but it is still an amazing deal to get $33,500,- in value in return for $10,500 and an old camera body. We even got more free accessories then before! Absolutely amazing!

I do think the system of who comes first is getting a bit confusing though. At first it was just you number which determined your place in line, now it is a combination of number and how much money you want to spend which is a lot less elegant. But I understand the RED company has to make money somehow.

Maybe it is and idea to let the whole RED One serial number thing go after this and just open up a time frame in which people can make a reservation for new products. First come, first in line, just like the RED One in the beginning. And invite some people to test new products based on experience and name in the industry rather than some selected low serial number. More equal chances for everybody and less envy between RED customers. Just a thought.
 
I just love me some math,

Epic-X brains will cost $28,000 to everyone else that didn't buy a Red before Oct 29th as Jim stated. $28,000 just for the brain alone..

When the first 1,200+ of us put our $1,000 deposits down way back when, Jim awarded us with a $2,500 accessory spending allowance (very generous) for sticking it out with them. Now we're a few years ahead and we're getting even more.

Epic-X Stage 3...Spend $10,500, lose your Red body and get $5,250 worth of accessories for free.

Epic-X Stage 2...Spend $9,000 more than Stage 3 and get $5,950 worth of accessories for free, and keep your Red.

Epic-X Stage 1...Spend $8,500 more than Stage 2 OR $17,500 more than Stage 3 and get $8,750 worth of accessories, and keep your Red.

Now if we subtract the $5,700 premium for entering Stage 1, then we are left with $3,050 worth of free accessories for that stage, making it a way better deal than when the RedOne first came out with their $2500 allowance.

I think it makes the most economical sense to go for Stage 2. But if you want to be the ultimate badass on the block, then Stage 1 of course. If you're Red is working, then you'll ROI the extra cost in no time.

Food for thought.
 
Richard Darge said:
I think it makes the most economical sense to go for Stage 2. But if you want to be the ultimate badass on the block, then Stage 1 of course. If you're Red is working, then you'll ROI the extra cost in no time.
Click to expand...

Unknown variable is how fast RED intends to output Epic-X bodies - or: how much time you have to get the $9,000 back you spend extra to be in stage 2. If that is 6 months then sure, stage 2 makes the most sense. If it is 2 months then what do you do?
 
Well, you could always pay the $19,500 and sell your RedOne privately for more than what you'd get with Stage 3 or at least break even with the sale and get an Epic-X a lot sooner than you would if you waited for Stage 3. But like you said, time's an unknown variable so its tough to tell. My brain says, Stage 1 will be like the first 100 RedOne cameras, Red will release a handful, wait 2-3 months for testing, then they will roll out Stage 2 which should last another 2-3 months, and so on. Just wild educated speculation... One thing's for certain, it sure is nice having a Red One performing so well after almost 2 years time.. I can wait forever for the new cameras. It's the Scarlet people that I feel anxious for. I know what it feels like to WAIT!
 
Richard Darge said:
But like you said, time's an unknown variable so its tough to tell.
Click to expand...

Agree with you Rick about that important TIME FACTOR

and in that case it's make sense to have sort of "STAGE FIVE" that means give all of us RED1 owners that are interested in option to R1 to M-X sensor upgrade right now.

In between let TATTOOs to beta test Epic cameras and then when all is ready roll on other stages as described.

R1 to M-X upgrade (right) now would free a lot of pressure to beta testing program described at the STAGE ONE as a TATTOO.

EPIC would be ready when is ready.

No need of estimate time frame.

You'll get M-X now on your R1 and all other feature "beauties" that EPIC/SCARLET will bring you would get when the products are 100% ready to ship.

Also no pressure to release camera too early like it was with RED ONE.
 
TATTOO

TATTOO

Jeff Kilgroe said:
That just made my day. Coolest tattoo ever! ...As long as it's not on my body. :biggrin:
Click to expand...

I'm heading more towards option 1 ....

are we still on topic? :biggrin:
 

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Tim Whitcomb said:
Jim, first, sorry you are getting all these annoying Scarlet posts... its sad really. Glad to see you guys staying on the high road.

Back to the EPIC thread. no question the program is beyond generous... and Id guess many bought the RED ONE because it was sold with a "Trade In allowance". FACT: The trade-in offer was an ingenious way to build trust and loyalty, no question there at all.

Unless you cant afford to upgrade Stage 2. Thats where the program has a potentially perceived, well, lets call it a "hiccup".

Forget the generosity, for just a moment, and please look at their CONTEXT.
and remember, Im just the messenger :)

Before the announcement they had their place in line and a full price trade-in... now, they still have their full price trade-in yes, but alas, their coveted place in line is now only relative to each STAGE. (Everything changes. understood) but that is also one change, that is something you can control.

So can you see how they might feel bumped? Especially, when, if they had the dough, STAGE 2 is a no-brainer... they should all do that anyway.
Its by far the best value. Agreed and thanks!

but when STAGE 3 is all they can afford... the perspective, like it or not, is that they got bumped for not being able to afford Stage 2.

CONTEXT is key.

From RED's context, there really is no argument... the alternative is, you get nothing. People certainly get that. So please dont mistake their context (no matter how narrow it may appear) with ingratitude. Its not the case. Many of us know and really appreciate the challenges you face.

My suggestion, even at the risk of getting bumped by Stage 3 guys before me, is I really think you should at least consider combining Stage 3 with Stage 2... making it the same stage, but with a CHOICE.

Besides, then you only go down the line once....and perhaps more quickly put the program to bed and ship to everyone else without a RED ONE faster.
The latter having the most margins, from a business perspective, is the ultimate goal I imagine.

REVISED PROGRAM SUGGESTION:

Stage 1.

6 to ?, get a Tattoo... killer program as well.

Stage 2
. Keep or Trade your RED ONE. Your choice.

Stage 3- Everyone else can now buy an Epic.

Personally, I am going 100% STAGE 2 if I cant get a Tattoo...as its the the BEST value. Wait, I keep my RED1 and still get a discount? Freaking awesome deal..oh and I can upgrade my R1 to M-X? and have 2 cameras with the same EPIC sensor? WOW~ thanks!

But if im broke, and just want the Epic I waited for so long, and my full price trade in is JUST barely affording me to do it... Im in!

"but wait, why do I have to wait? Im still buying an EPIC Jim, "Jarred, im still buying an EPIC!..." Im keeping my side of the Trade-In deal? Please dont bump me because Im too broke for Stage 2!"

That is the current context of Stage 3 early adopters.

It goes without saying they ARE grateful Jim... and very loyal... but I think you inadvertently alienated some peeps with the program as it stands... especially when before the announcement, everybody expected to just "trade-in." based on their place in line.

Selfishly, I hope it stays the same, cuz Ill get my EPIC sooner, but personally, I feel like Im screwing people who were here WAY before me, simply because I have $ for Stage 2 and they dont.

Thanks for listening.
Click to expand...

Tim,

I like your suggestions, but you may be missing something. It may not be about choice, but about schedule. Keep in mind that Stage One and Two are sure to have smaller impact on Stock and Personel than Stage three which will certainly blow the doors off. One of my "pet peeves" from RED's wonderful past was the incredibly long wait for accessories AFTER the camera became available. If you look at the general time line, and RED's history, then you would realize that even now, in November, RED will have to tweak, field test, and mass produce THOUSANDS of accessoires in less than 6 months. Also, have you considered the personel and space and system that will be needed to take in, CHECK, and store THOUSANDS of RED ONE cameras when stage three begins?

No my friend.. The case here is not "reward" or even a choice.. It's about stock, schedule, and workload. If you combine Stage 2 and Stage 3, I am willing to bet you'd burn through RED's existing stock of supplies, and that would cause more harm than good.

My guess...

Jay
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Jim, first, sorry you are getting all these annoying Scarlet posts... its sad really. Glad to see you guys staying on the high road.

Back to the EPIC thread. no question the program is beyond generous... and Id guess many bought the RED ONE because it was sold with a "Trade In allowance". FACT: The trade-in offer was an ingenious way to build trust and loyalty, no question there at all.

Unless you cant afford to upgrade Stage 2. Thats where the program has a potentially perceived, well, lets call it a "hiccup".

Forget the generosity, for just a moment, and please look at their CONTEXT.
and remember, Im just the messenger :)

Before the announcement they had their place in line and a full price trade-in... now, they still have their full price trade-in yes, but alas, their coveted place in line is now only relative to each STAGE. (Everything changes. understood) but that is also one change, that is something you can control.

So can you see how they might feel bumped? Especially, when, if they had the dough, STAGE 2 is a no-brainer... they should all do that anyway.
Its by far the best value. Agreed and thanks!

but when STAGE 3 is all they can afford... the perspective, like it or not, is that they got bumped for not being able to afford Stage 2.

CONTEXT is key.

From RED's context, there really is no argument... the alternative is, you get nothing. People certainly get that. So please dont mistake their context (no matter how narrow it may appear) with ingratitude. Its not the case. Many of us know and really appreciate the challenges you face.

My suggestion, even at the risk of getting bumped by Stage 3 guys before me, is I really think you should at least consider combining Stage 3 with Stage 2... making it the same stage, but with a CHOICE.

Besides, then you only go down the line once....and perhaps more quickly put the program to bed and ship to everyone else without a RED ONE faster.
The latter having the most margins, from a business perspective, is the ultimate goal I imagine.

REVISED PROGRAM SUGGESTION:

Stage 1.

6 to ?, get a Tattoo... killer program as well.

Stage 2
. Keep or Trade your RED ONE. Your choice.

Stage 3- Everyone else can now buy an Epic.

Personally, I am going 100% STAGE 2 if I cant get a Tattoo...as its the the BEST value. Wait, I keep my RED1 and still get a discount? Freaking awesome deal..oh and I can upgrade my R1 to M-X? and have 2 cameras with the same EPIC sensor? WOW~ thanks!

But if im broke, and just want the Epic I waited for so long, and my full price trade in is JUST barely affording me to do it... Im in!

"but wait, why do I have to wait? Im still buying an EPIC Jim, "Jarred, im still buying an EPIC!..." Im keeping my side of the Trade-In deal? Please dont bump me because Im too broke for Stage 2!"

That is the current context of Stage 3 early adopters.

It goes without saying they ARE grateful Jim... and very loyal... but I think you inadvertently alienated some peeps with the program as it stands... especially when before the announcement, everybody expected to just "trade-in." based on their place in line.

Selfishly, I hope it stays the same, cuz Ill get my EPIC sooner, but personally, I feel like Im screwing people who were here WAY before me, simply because I have $ for Stage 2 and they dont.

Thanks for listening.
Click to expand...

Tim brings up an excellent point. I own two Red Ones (#344 and #6882) and was excited and intrigued by the stage concept. Very flexible, fair, and lots of options. I think that ultimately owning two Epics and ONE Red One as a backup/ cheaper rental price point alternative would be great for me. So I'm likely both a STAGE TWO and STAGE THREE candidate. But I'd rather keep the newer camera. However, I lose my place in line to get an Epic quickly if I wait to be STAGE THREE with camera #344.
Not complaining. I just think Tim's notion of having either option in the order of your adoption of Red would be nice. Not MORE FAIR, not MORE GENEROUS. But nice.
Anyway...
I'm excited to see the program moving forward. Take your time, guys, and make it right! Give those TATTOO testers lots of time. There are a lot of cameras coming down the pike and we want the Red Team to win. No rush here. I'd rather get it right than fast!
Cheers,
Harry
 
Jannard said:
It was about a month ago when I mentioned that it was a really good thing to be a RED ONE owner... :-)

Jim
Click to expand...


Yes, thanks for making it so!

1st in pushing the technology and price point for users...

1st in customer service and feedback...

1st to institute no line jumping, and sticking to it in the face of giants!

Dave
 
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