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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Obsolescence...

Any NAB sneak peeks left for us? Mabye what those M3 spots are for?
 
+1 I too felt 15K to Weapon MG w/ same sensor + new accessories was a bit too rich for my blood for the ROI, and would guess we're hardly the only Dragon owners out who would have LOVED to upgrade but instead are wincing a bit at all the DSMC2 love and can only plan on either selling their Dragons or keeping them and just buying a whole new camera (hopefully some day lol).

10K for Weapon MG and minimal accessory upgrade costs would've done it a year ago at NAB but alas...

Given that DSMC 2 is estimated to be solid to 2020, I wonder if RED couldn't offer us long time Dragon owners (those of us who upgraded long BEFORE Jarred told us we "should") a new (less expensive) upgrade path as Weapons proliferate, manufacturing gets less expensive, and the 4 years turn into 3 then 2 etc...perhaps there's a "Tier 2" Indi upgrade possible for DP's and rental houses that don't make 30K a week? ;) LOL

Regardless, I always want to reiterate my ongoing deep gratitude for my amazing camera and my love and respect for RED...just wish 2016 NAB upgrade pricing had gone a little differently lol...



Tony Lorentzen said:
I love you guys and I know posting this is probably going to get myself into trouble............By the way - the transition from Red One to Epic was an absolutely AMAZING deal... But now - to upgrade to Weapon I'll have to pay another 29.500 plus the expense of upgrading a lot of my accessories (59.500 if I wanted to go for the CF Weapon). I know some people have paid off their Weapon upgrades in 3-4 weeks but not even professional rental companies in my market are able to pay off their cameras that fast. Some will definitely be able to do that, no doubt. Good for them!

Now - I'm incredibly happy with my Dragon - it produces amazing footage and I have happy clients but the current upgrade price for me to go to Weapon just doesn't justify it at all for me. It would probably be a much better deal for me to actually sell my camera and buy a new one all over again. If you want to truly say it's "obsolescence obsolete" then it should be a far better deal for me to "upgrade" instead of buying new. Just my 2 cents.
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Thank you,
 
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+1. There was a lot of FUD last year about the upgrade but I distinctly remember thinking 20K + to get rid of fan noise only to be set up for yet more upgrades, vs 70k for new camera cost to both be well outside the multiple 10K upgrades I did and got used to getting from Scarlet > Epic > Dragon.

Julio Quintana said:
I take full responsibility for my decision and I don't regret not doing the upgrade. All I'm saying is that I've happily done every upgrade since I bought my original Red One, and the Epic Dragon > Weapon upgrade was the most expensive upgrade yet, with the lowest perceived increase in value. It also came while new Dragon owners were dealing with the unexpected noisiness of our brand new Dragon sensors (Skintone/Highlight OLPF), while the Alexa was seemingly overnight devouring the Red rental market. This led to me having a childish "Screw this" reaction to the Weapon upgrade because frankly I was just tired and frustrated at that particular moment.

Now, almost two years later, I have learned to get the most out of my amazing Dragon sensor and I'm feeling great about that upgrade, so in my particular case I think I would have been more receptive to the Weapon upgrade if it had been announced a year later, along with the "open-source" philosophy and the commitment to not change the body until 2020 (and maybe even a jump straight to the 8K sensor).

This is my long-winded way of saying that the Weapon upgrade is actually a pretty good deal, so the negative reaction amongst Dragon owners probably had to do with timing and lack of information.
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Keeping Obsolescence Obsolete is getting pricier. And I wonder how the shift to dealers (mid-camera-release to acknowledge that policy shift) will affect direct-from-RED future sales? Some suspect that dealers were given the first opportunity to order RAVENs at least, possibly Scarlet Ws and who knows what is going on with the allocations for the 8k sensor.

This is not your Grandfather's camera company, so change your expectations.
 
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Possible New Upgrade Policy?

Possible New Upgrade Policy?

Since each camera seems to have an approximate principal life span of 4 years (not that cameras don't work well for much longer) I am sincerely curious if there might not be a "2nd Chance 2nd Tier" Upgrade plan worth considering that would still honor RED's needs as well as it's existing independent customer base that is unable to *immediately* adopt on new releases due to higher costs from R&D etc?

Certainly, as cameras (currently Weapons and their ilk) become more widley adopted and manufacturing becomes easier / achieves better economy of scale, there are still going to be those that want to upgrade but couldn't on first blush.

I wonder if a "2nd Chance" upgrade policy where the purchase date of the previous camera is considered and an upgrade is offered to the next Camera Tiers, but at a reduced price from the initial release (a year or two or more after release) that takes advantage of the aditional eonomy of scale allowing folks who couldn't justify the "bleeding edge" upgrade cost to still stay reasonably current while allowing RED to make enough margin to be worthwhile? After all, that upgrade would only be good for a year or two of use before the next body comes out somewhat justifying the reduced upgrade price?

This way, they could keep all of these customers (and I believe there are quite a few) instead of them possibly buying into different systems not to mention the increase in accessories sales?

I get that R&D and Obsolescence Obsolete is getting more expensive and applaud RED setting a higher bar for Weapon over cutting corners.

Thank you,
 
I'm still holding on to my Epic MX hoping that i might have an option to upgrade to the new DSMC system in the near future .

But, the silence is loud.


Thanks,
Tim
THEFILMDIVISION.tumblr.com
 
PC Greene said:
Since each camera seems to have an approximate principal life span of 4 years (not that cameras don't work well for much longer) I am sincerely curious if there might not be a "2nd Chance 2nd Tier" Upgrade plan worth considering that would still honor RED's needs as well as it's existing independent customer base that is unable to *immediately* adopt on new releases due to higher costs from R&D etc?

Certainly, as cameras (currently Weapons and their ilk) become more widley adopted and manufacturing becomes easier / achieves better economy of scale, there are still going to be those that want to upgrade but couldn't on first blush.

I wonder if a "2nd Chance" upgrade policy where the purchase date of the previous camera is considered and an upgrade is offered to the next Camera Tiers, but at a reduced price from the initial release (a year or two or more after release) that takes advantage of the aditional eonomy of scale allowing folks who couldn't justify the "bleeding edge" upgrade cost to still stay reasonably current while allowing RED to make enough margin to be worthwhile? After all, that upgrade would only be good for a year or two of use before the next body comes out somewhat justifying the reduced upgrade price?

This way, they could keep all of these customers (and I believe there are quite a few) instead of them possibly buying into different systems not to mention the increase in accessories sales?

I get that R&D and Obsolescence Obsolete is getting more expensive and applaud RED setting a higher bar for Weapon over cutting corners.

Thank you,
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This would be great... it would keep people in the RED upgrade path for the future... we would be getting our weapons a couple years after everyone else which would help justify the upgrade price drop like you said, and it would give people who dont make as much money plan/be able to stay the red path

Although im happy with my epic dragon at the moment... the side handle with all the buttons is perfect for me
 
This is a tough thread to see die. I deeply hope there is still some recourse for Epic MX cameras to get up on the path.

Thanks guys.
 
Sean Solowiej said:
This is a tough thread to see die. I deeply hope there is still some recourse for Epic MX cameras to get up on the path.

Thanks guys.
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Don't worry it will come just need to get caught up with ravens before we sort you guys out :)
 
Jarred Land said:
Don't worry it will come just need to get caught up with ravens before we sort you guys out :)
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Oh wow. I will really appreciate this gesture when it happens. I sincerely thought us MX owners were forever S.O.L. from ever stepping up to Weapon.
 
PC Greene said:
...I distinctly remember thinking 20K + to get rid of fan noise...
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Swapping the front 2.0 fan to the 1.0 fan makes Epic-D extremely quiet.

And virtually silent with a matte box.
 
I use the v1 fan on my dragon and love it. I never used the new one. Top fan is a must though. hoping the new camera is an upgrade path for Dragon that doesn't cost as much as MG weapon. :)
 
Hoping for an update on MX cameras! Maybe even today????
 
You should consider selling rather than upgrading where cheap enough. More cameras on the market.
 
Marc Thorpe said:
Obsolescence Obsolete comes at a price, as we saw with the the RED One, remember those? The catalyst product on which the whole success of this brand was founded. Can't for the life of me find them in the RED Store though? You either jump through the (expensive) upgrade hoops, or get left behind. It would have been much better to have suggested favourable but limited preference would be given to those early adopters rather than suggest they were buying into something that would be forever supported.

People can shout about product evolution, road maps or progression with every brand under the sun, but I haven't seen any other brand suggesting, with relish, that this is where obsolescence stops. A bold claim, and one that sadly failed.

A shrewd business model. Successful? yes. Ethical? well that's down to individual interpretation.
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Are you serious?

The Red One with a MX produces images that are still used in many high end commercials in the world. Many films, including Girl With The Dragon Tattoo amongst others, where shot with it. Its a camera that was released what, 8, 9 years ago?

Where I work for they purchased a Canon C300. One or two years later, a much better Mark II came about making that previous one obsolete and losing much of its market value.

The Red One maintained maket value for more than 5 years. You could very well have sold the Red One and have minimal loss at double or triple the timeframe a Canon Cinema camera lost its value.

You can still sell a Red Epic Dragon package at a very good price- I have a 4 years old body with the Dragon sensor and can still recoup more than half of my investment in a sell- if I wanted it.

I stayed on the "upgrade path" and will for Weapon and Helium because I want to and Red gives me the option. I could very well keep my Dragon and take advantage of cheaper accessories and third party support items. Realistically speaking it will be by the next Olympics- Four years time- that we will see practical requirements for 8K. Until then, Red Epic Dragons will continue to be a major player in High End Commercials and image capture. More than enough to make money to pay for a later jump. Many International TVC's over here are still shot in MX, its practically a standard. Those cameras made to many costumers a lot of money.

Its a great deal what Red gives its costumers. Marc, you are a Red One owner. As an Epic owner who paid more than 40 000 USD for a working package, I have no complains and would understand that, after Helium, I would be left behind. Heck if I stayed in MX I would understand I wouldn't have the possibility to jump to Helium. This is much, much more than the competition is doing. Its part of what I love about this company. Hopefully comments like yours don't make them change their minds!
 
Sergio Perez said:
Are you serious?

The Red One with a MX produces images that are still used in many high end commercials in the world. Many films, including Girl With The Dragon Tattoo amongst others, where shot with it. Its a camera that was released what, 8, 9 years ago?

Where I work for they purchased a Canon C300. One or two years later, a much better Mark II came about making that previous one obsolete and losing much of its market value.

The Red One maintained maket value for more than 5 years. You could very well have sold the Red One and have minimal loss at double or triple the timeframe a Canon Cinema camera lost its value.
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The C300 was announced in 2011, I wouldn't call it "one or two years later" that a mk2 replaced it.
 
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