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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Obsolescence...

For me if the talked about higher frame per second burst option that was supposed to be available in DSMC1 could be implemented in DSMC2, that would give me a HUGE reason to upgrade.

The DSMC2 line seems to be a great step in the right direction with not having to black shade, ProRes, better design as far as ports, etc. but the actual image quality enhancements seem to be minimal. For me it really comes down to justifying the price based on the final image.

I was never expecting anything unreasonable, but a FPS bump with a 5-10 second max record time would be huge to me!
 
I have an Epic-x and when I read this form Jarred I almost raided my savings account
"So the Weapon MG trade in package that includes the new accessories you need is $ 29.5k Minus whatever version of Epic you have , ( lets say Epic-X to compare equally the bottom of the Epic line to the bottom of the Weapon line) , we are giving you $15,500 of trade in credit so you are paying $14,000 total for a new camera that includes all new accessories that a new customer would pay $30k just for the brain alone . I don't know how that's a worse deal than what you paid along the way ( similar to your own words " amazing deal " to go from R1 to Epic" ) and I don't know how that is not just an incredibly great program."

...but he is talking about the EPIC-X DRAGON... I used to know a girl who did things like this to me...
 
Good to hear the commitment to the new bodies. I'm really happy with my decision to upgrade to weapon. I don't think the form factor gets enough praise, it's incredible how small and light the brain is.
 
Jarred, you guys make incredible products...please make some glass again.....!!!
This thing is kinda big hahaha.....
 
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I appreciate this. 4 years. Same brain configuration for accessories. Thank you for making that clear Jarred.

Jarred Land said:
I think we have done a pretty great job upholding to Jim's original Obsolescence Obsolete mantra by moving our customers along both our evolutionary and revolutionary updates via our incredible upgrade program.

The DSMC2 camera brain really lets us extend this to a whole new level. Moving the connectors off of the main brain allows us to continuously grow with technology as they present themselves. It also allows us and 3rd parties to really extend our cameras by accommodating complete customization never before offered in this industry. XLR, Mini Jack, Min XLR, Line level, Mic Level, no audio, 1 sdi, 2 sdi, 6 sdi, HDMi no HDMI, PL mount Canon Mount, XPL, etc. etc. etc. Doesn't matter which flavor of connectors you prefer or which wireless devices you desire there is an opportunity if we don't make it, one of our great 3rd parties partners can.

I am not sure if this actually matters to any of you, but I am comfortable making a commitment right now that the DSMC2 form factor will stay the same until at least 2020.

This should give our customers some reassurance that they have some longevity in their purchases and also relieves some anxiety from our 3rd parties investing in manufacturing new bits for our cameras. There is of course some incredible new sensors and will be incredible new ASICS and internal boards that will greatly expand your cameras along the way, and of course our customers will be able to upgrade to those as they materialize through our upgrade program. But all of you can feel good about getting used to what your Raven/Scarlet-w/Weapon looks like in front of you.

There will be exceptions.. we will have some special cameras for special applications and we will continue to make some unique cameras for special customers like we always have.

At any rate, This is one of those internal discussions that probably should of stayed internal but It seems like it just might make for a good discussion.

Thank you all.
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Yeah, glass. People really get ripped off. A multiple mount fast x20 times servo/manual video/cinema compact lens with good boketh. Just a few format convertors mean you could sell it into everything from 2/3 rds through 4/3 rds, EF etc markets.

But a very compact liquid stage lens version is the prize. It would make Raven remarkably small with a 20x lens. Now think about how desirable a camera like that would be in field with a high quality liquid stage lens. low cost.
 
Tony Lorentzen said:
Well, fuck me ... I just read all the fine print after having logged into RED.com about the trade-in program. So the price is $29.500 and if I upgraded to the Weapon Mg I'd get $13.000 discount which would mean the upgrade package would cost me $16.500 including basic accessories listed in the "included" tab. That's actually a pretty fucking awesome deal. Please slap me next time you see me. I'm going to jump off the Stratosphere Tower now...
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I didn't upgrade my Epic Dragon for a variety of reasons, but I do think more people might have upgraded if it had been clearer exactly how much it would cost and exactly what the vision was for the Weapon. I remember talking to a lot of my camera friends in the weeks after the announcement and we all understood we would have to pay $29K for basically the same camera with the same sensor, but with the ability to record ProRes. That was just too much of a commitment when most of us had only had our Dragon sensors for less than a year at that point.

As new Weapon accessories begin to trickle out, and announcements about open-source form factor are discussed, the potential of Weapon is becoming more clear, and it makes me wonder if I would have stayed on the upgrade path if I had truly understood the whole picture. Oh well.
 
Love my Scarlet and not ready to move forward.

I'm just happy that my baby can output 24fps via HDMI.

Just a jab at a local production that panned my camera for an F5.

I had a chuckle when they found out they couldnt use the HDMI port using 24fps (and 23.976).

One day folks Ill be on the WEAPON v2 train ;)
 
Julio Quintana said:
I didn't upgrade my Epic Dragon for a variety of reasons, but I do think more people might have upgraded if it had been clearer exactly how much it would cost and exactly what the vision was for the Weapon. I remember talking to a lot of my camera friends in the weeks after the announcement and we all understood we would have to pay $29K for basically the same camera with the same sensor, but with the ability to record ProRes. That was just too much of a commitment when most of us had only had our Dragon sensors for less than a year at that point.

As new Weapon accessories begin to trickle out, and announcements about open-source form factor are discussed, the potential of Weapon is becoming more clear, and it makes me wonder if I would have stayed on the upgrade path if I had truly understood the whole picture. Oh well.
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Ditto plus add the recent, and long overdue, embracing of 3rd party accessory providers like Wooden Camera. A company who was once sued and banned by RED. Bet that put the chill on many potential providers of kit. A robust ecosystem is essential for any professional product to gain widespread use.
 
That is always gonna happen. It doesn't matter if you don't know, if Red announce that Weapon is "the way forward" when it comes to Red tech, then if you want improvements you have move on. If you choose to stay, then you need to stick with that choice really. I was in the same position and I put a lot of money into my choice of upgrading because I personally believe it's the right way to go for me. But I also thought that I don't need more than the MX, I could have just continued working with that and do my stuff and when I had the money go for a new Red again. The cost would probably be the same.

My main reason for going Weapon is because the "next upgrade" will probably be a sensor upgrade if you believe Jarreds "Body > sensor > body > sensor" upgrade path. So the next upgrade will probably cost less but increase the life-span of the Weapon further. Just looking at the improvements that Dragon put over MX, I think the next sensor might be the sensor to rule them all until there's some new way of capturing images all together in a few years.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
That is always gonna happen. It doesn't matter if you don't know, if Red announce that Weapon is "the way forward" when it comes to Red tech, then if you want improvements you have move on. If you choose to stay, then you need to stick with that choice really. I was in the same position and I put a lot of money into my choice of upgrading because I personally believe it's the right way to go for me. But I also thought that I don't need more than the MX, I could have just continued working with that and do my stuff and when I had the money go for a new Red again. The cost would probably be the same.

My main reason for going Weapon is because the "next upgrade" will probably be a sensor upgrade if you believe Jarreds "Body > sensor > body > sensor" upgrade path. So the next upgrade will probably cost less but increase the life-span of the Weapon further. Just looking at the improvements that Dragon put over MX, I think the next sensor might be the sensor to rule them all until there's some new way of capturing images all together in a few years.
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I take full responsibility for my decision and I don't regret not doing the upgrade. All I'm saying is that I've happily done every upgrade since I bought my original Red One, and the Epic Dragon > Weapon upgrade was the most expensive upgrade yet, with the lowest perceived increase in value. It also came while new Dragon owners were dealing with the unexpected noisiness of our brand new Dragon sensors (Skintone/Highlight OLPF), while the Alexa was seemingly overnight devouring the Red rental market. This led to me having a childish "Screw this" reaction to the Weapon upgrade because frankly I was just tired and frustrated at that particular moment.

Now, almost two years later, I have learned to get the most out of my amazing Dragon sensor and I'm feeling great about that upgrade, so in my particular case I think I would have been more receptive to the Weapon upgrade if it had been announced a year later, along with the "open-source" philosophy and the commitment to not change the body until 2020 (and maybe even a jump straight to the 8K sensor).

This is my long-winded way of saying that the Weapon upgrade is actually a pretty good deal, so the negative reaction amongst Dragon owners probably had to do with timing and lack of information.
 
Great news Jarred!
This actually makes me feel much, much better for making the (already incredible) jump into Weapon.
Last year when everything was announced, I thought I was SOL to upgrade to Weapon. You guys were able to get the price down and still give the pre-NAB owners the discounts and accessory credits that made it possible to upgrade for me.
Now to hear that DSMC2 will be around for a while, I know I will be able to make almost as much bank as I did with the R1 back in 2009, maybe more (which would be amazing!).

You guys rock. There's no other way to say it. I've been a fan since seeing Jim at that big Apple event back when R1 was announced to the skeptics. Keep on rocking it!

See ya in Vegas!!!
 
Julio Quintana said:
I take full responsibility for my decision and I don't regret not doing the upgrade. All I'm saying is that I've happily done every upgrade since I bought my original Red One, and the Epic Dragon > Weapon upgrade was the most expensive upgrade yet, with the lowest perceived increase in value. It also came while new Dragon owners were dealing with the unexpected noisiness of our brand new Dragon sensors (Skintone/Highlight OLPF), while the Alexa was seemingly overnight devouring the Red rental market. This led to me having a childish "Screw this" reaction to the Weapon upgrade because frankly I was just tired and frustrated at that particular moment.

Now, almost two years later, I have learned to get the most out of my amazing Dragon sensor and I'm feeling great about that upgrade, so in my particular case I think I would have been more receptive to the Weapon upgrade if it had been announced a year later, along with the "open-source" philosophy and the commitment to not change the body until 2020 (and maybe even a jump straight to the 8K sensor).

This is my long-winded way of saying that the Weapon upgrade is actually a pretty good deal, so the negative reaction amongst Dragon owners probably had to do with timing and lack of information.
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I agree 200%.

IMO, Weapon should've been 8K only with the price of the 6K Weapon upgrade. Now THAT would've been a real upgrade worthy of the name Red.
 
Like many others here, the Weapon upgrade price was just so steep I intended to keep my two Dragons and just get off the upgrade path.

The hitch was the 8k hook. I wanted the minnow on that hook so badly I ended up selling two beautiful Epic Dragons so I could get in line for an 8k CF Weapon. The CF part held no attraction for me but the 8k was a powerful electromagnet pulling me to pull the trigger on the Weapon.

It's been almost a year since I made that choice and quite honestly, I expected to have my 8k sensor upgrade by now. And I've even entertained the thought of cancelling my 8k order, selling my CF Weapon body and buying a bunch of RAVENs... and put the difference in price toward budget for an upcoming low-budget project.

But I've since weighed the pros and cons of staying on the 8k track. For one the extra resolution gives me opportunities to reframe at 4k. You could in essence shoot an establishing shot, walk away from the camera or just Fool Control it from a distance, and reframe to a medium close up and still be in 4k. Another consideration is the fact that 8k is coming and at an exponential pace rather than a linear one. Shooting in 8k is not only about future proofing, but just as much about being in on the ground floor when 8k content is king.

The cons of staying the course is not knowing RED's intentions in re: 8k sensor moving forward. I've hoped to hear a clear cut answer from Jarred whether or not RED will send out 8k sensored cameras to dealers while simultaneously honoring the $10'000 depositing true-believers from a year ago. I'm sure many of the early depositors will in fact get their cameras soon. But I'm at the tail-end of the deposit line and if I've got to compete with cash-ready buyers from dealers demanding product, being supplied with the hens-teeth rare good sensors, then I've probably got one, maybe two more NABs to go before this smelt gets to swim with (well behind and below) the well-heeled school of Big Tuna. (I know, I know... it's my fault for not being rich and famous by now)

Bottom line is I am in a powerless position now. If I turn back my pre-order for the 8k sensor, RED has a place for it to go. I'm $10,000 better off now, but at least $10,000 worse off if I outright buy the 8k sensor later on. Besides, I've got a year of equity and a year of no camera in that $10,000 deposit, so I guess I just bulldog down and bite the bullet.

At least I've got a CF camera to shoot with now, even if it is a paltry 6k. '-(
 
The whole "shoot big rez to reframe in post" is a bit odd to me. Shoot the frame, lens compression and DoF you intend as a professional DoP to be worthy of using a RED. Buying an 8K camera to reframe in post is like #27 on my list of reasons to part with my hard earned gold pieces ;-)
 
Zeb B said:
The whole "shoot big rez to reframe in post" is a bit odd to me. Shoot the frame, lens compression and DoF you intend as a professional DoP to be worthy of using a RED. Buying an 8K camera to reframe in post is like #27 on my list of reasons to part with my hard earned gold pieces ;-)
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Who said anything about being a PROFESSIONAL DoP? '-)

And that's my point. Because I'm a holistic movie-maker, I can add a touch of professionalism in post by using creative re-framing without the aid and expense of a large professional crew. I've often said the duty of a big-budget movie maker is to put talented professionals to work plying their craft. The duty of a low budget Indie movie-maker is to make the best movie possible with the budget he/she has.

I'll likely be shooting (when available) with a CF 8k and two RAVENs for the same scene... all controlled by one or two persons via Fool Control. And I've got in mind some shots that you won't get from a filmy-schooly by-the-book director/DoP.
 
That's a good point.

I also stayed with Dragon and less of a clear financial vision. The accessory costs for brand new gear and SSDs felt like a killer.

Julio Quintana said:
I didn't upgrade my Epic Dragon for a variety of reasons, but I do think more people might have upgraded if it had been clearer exactly how much it would cost and exactly what the vision was for the Weapon. I remember talking to a lot of my camera friends in the weeks after the announcement and we all understood we would have to pay $29K for basically the same camera with the same sensor, but with the ability to record ProRes. That was just too much of a commitment when most of us had only had our Dragon sensors for less than a year at that point.

As new Weapon accessories begin to trickle out, and announcements about open-source form factor are discussed, the potential of Weapon is becoming more clear, and it makes me wonder if I would have stayed on the upgrade path if I had truly understood the whole picture. Oh well.
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